The 2045 Initiative

Pyrhos

Well-Known Member
Hello fellow T9Kers,
About two or so weeks ago I found out about the 2045 Project. Basically, its goal is to remake humanity using available resorces, such as genetic manipulation, robotics, cognative technology, informative technology, and more. Also, if on their site (www.2045.com) it has a roadmap of their plans. From the Avatars to the thought controlled hover cars, this stuff is exciting and I think kind of scary. Any Whovian will see Avatar B (A robot with a humans brain inside) and think "Cybermen!". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01hbkh4hXEk Thats the video about it.
Now everybody, discuss!
 

Serenity595

Active Member
It's optimistic. It's visionary. It's even inspirational.

But as a realist, my personal opinion is that some of these things like Avatar B will never become reality. And if they did, it would be centuries away from our current technology. People like to believe huge leaps in science and technology will happen in the next few decades, but history has shown that science goes in small steps and takes much more time.

On a side note, does anyone else think Avatar C and Avatar D are more likely to happen than Avatar B, even though on the website they happen later in the timeline?
 

Pyrhos

Well-Known Member
I think it is presumed that the more physical (Avatar B) machines will be more present, as they are easier to make then completely holographic people, where would you store the data for a person?
 

TheGurw

Well-Known Member
People like to believe huge leaps in science and technology will happen in the next few decades, but history has shown that science goes in small steps and takes much more time.
I actually have to disagree with you there. Science and technology historically advance very quickly due to breakthroughs that advance current progress rates many times over during a short period of time - between breakthrough it does march slowly on, though. For example, the transistor sped up the reduction in size of computers by several decades and reduced the size and weight of computers from over 20 tons to 1.2 tons in under a decade - without it the smallest computers today would likely be just under 1 ton.

Edit: To clarify, science tends to advance in large "leaps" followed by small steps, rather than a constant plodding.
 

Skryter

Well-Known Member
It's optimistic. It's visionary. It's even inspirational.

But as a realist, my personal opinion is that some of these things like Avatar B will never become reality. And if they did, it would be centuries away from our current technology. People like to believe huge leaps in science and technology will happen in the next few decades, but history has shown that science goes in small steps and takes much more time.

On a side note, does anyone else think Avatar C and Avatar D are more likely to happen than Avatar B, even though on the website they happen later in the timeline?

In the past 100 years our technology has rapidly advanced, while I agree that we will probably not see these in the near future, the chances to reach these goals in the next 100 years shouldn't be discounted.
 

Serenity595

Active Member
I think it is presumed that the more physical (Avatar B) machines will be more present, as they are easier to make then completely holographic people, where would you store the data for a person?
Well, I don't think holographic people is so far-fetched. I mean, if you compare storing data in a digital projection to being able to keep a brain alive in an artificial, man-made body that can interact with the world, it's much more believable, haha. We're not talking about simply artificial organs here. We're talking about an entire android body that can perform every necessary function to keep a human brain alive. Seems pretty much impossible.

I actually have to disagree with you there. Science and technology historically advance very quickly due to breakthroughs that advance current progress rates many times over during a short period of time - between breakthrough it does march slowly on, though. For example, the transistor sped up the reduction in size of computers by several decades and reduced the size and weight of computers from over 20 tons to 1.2 tons in under a decade - without it the smallest computers today would likely be just under 1 ton.

Edit: To clarify, science tends to advance in large "leaps" followed by small steps, rather than a constant plodding.

I see what you mean, and I have seen those "leaps" in history (moon landing, anyone?), but I was trying to explain it from a general overview. Even the scientific advances we consider leaps now aren't that big of a change most of the time if you look at it in the big picture. I still think we're at least a century (or something similar) away from this kind of tech though... at least Avatar B.

In the past 100 years our technology has rapidly advanced, while I agree that we will probably not see these in the near future, the chances to reach these goals in the next 100 years shouldn't be discounted.
I guess they shouldn't be discounted, but I believe we shouldn't be overly optimistic either... just because we want it to happen in our lifetime (that's the reason for most people).
 

TheGurw

Well-Known Member
Well, I don't think holographic people is so far-fetched. I mean, if you compare storing data in a digital projection to being able to keep a brain alive in an artificial, man-made body that can interact with the world, it's much more believable, haha. We're not talking about simply artificial organs here. We're talking about an entire android body that can perform every necessary function to keep a human brain alive. Seems pretty much impossible.



I see what you mean, and I have seen those "leaps" in history (moon landing, anyone?), but I was trying to explain it from a general overview. Even the scientific advances we consider leaps now aren't that big of a change most of the time if you look at it in the big picture. I still think we're at least a century (or something similar) away from this kind of tech though... at least Avatar B.


I guess they shouldn't be discounted, but I believe we shouldn't be overly optimistic either... just because we want it to happen in our lifetime (that's the reason for most people).
I'm of the opinion we're more likely to see a full-body prosthesis (since that's essentially what it would be) before we'll see human-level Artificial Intelligence.
 

Serenity595

Active Member
I don't know. The human body is pretty darn complex. :p It's one of the most complex machines on the planet.

By the way, I looked more at the website and it described Avatar C (Rebrain) as "Synthetic Carriers of Personality and Consciousness". Hold on, so do they mean it would be the person's actual consciousness or a replica?
 

TheGurw

Well-Known Member
I don't know. The human body is pretty darn complex. :p It's one of the most complex machines on the planet.

By the way, I looked more at the website and it described Avatar C (Rebrain) as "Synthetic Carriers of Personality and Consciousness". Hold on, so do they mean it would be the person's actual consciousness or a replica?
Imprinting your brain onto circuitry in order to fully replicate your current state of consciousness, memories, personality, and thought processes. In other words, YOU are the AI. I personally am looking forward to having conversations with myself - logically, the point at which my brain is copied becomes a splitting point, and after said point the copy will be a separate person, with separate experiences. While it would be a weird feeling, I can't help but wonder if I would still feel like me, or would I become distant from myself, each copy of me regarding the others as being less important. I wonder if I would be able to handle talking to someone who thinks exactly the same way I do, but with unlimited access to the internet; or would I commit suicide out of a feeling of inadequacy relative to this new, more knowledgeable self?

Would I need entertainment still? Would games hold any draw for me if I am literally inside them?

On a similar note, would a "download" be available as well as an "upload?" Could I imprint myself onto circuitry, temporarily put my human self into "standby" while I play a game from a completely immersive point of view, then download the experience into my human brain and feel as if I'd actually been there? Would I decide to forgo the return to the physical world, deciding to live solely in the cyber universe? Would a computer virus be able to corrupt my brain patterns? If so, I would hope I should be smart enough to make regular backups before hopping into the cyberme, automatically recognizing corrupt data and restoring the last backup.

This line of thinking deserves its own thread, honestly. There's so much to discuss on the possibilities; let alone the hows, whys, and wherefores.
 

DaGamer12345

Well-Known Member
First, one cannot replicate a human being. It is so complex that not only is it impossible to make a sort-of "android", if you will, but also "evolve" from a single cell. Second, the human race was created by the all-powerful God, but made in such a way no one can replicate it with robotics or DNA alterations or random chemicals exposed to an electric charge. So in conclusion, this will not happen for many years to come, let alone even happening at all.
 

Skryter

Well-Known Member
First, one cannot replicate a human being. It is so complex that not only is it impossible to make a sort-of "android", if you will, but also "evolve" from a single cell. Second, the human race was created by the all-powerful God, but made in such a way no one can replicate it with robotics or DNA alterations or random chemicals exposed to an electric charge. So in conclusion, this will not happen for many years to come, let alone even happening at all.

Please don't bring religion into this thread, we're discussing this in a scientific standpoint and petty rivalries with science vs god aren't needed here.
 

oozinator

Well-Known Member
Imprinting your brain onto circuitry in order to fully replicate your current state of consciousness, memories, personality, and thought processes. In other words, YOU are the AI. I personally am looking forward to having conversations with myself - logically, the point at which my brain is copied becomes a splitting point, and after said point the copy will be a separate person, with separate experiences. While it would be a weird feeling, I can't help but wonder if I would still feel like me, or would I become distant from myself, each copy of me regarding the others as being less important. I wonder if I would be able to handle talking to someone who thinks exactly the same way I do, but with unlimited access to the internet; or would I commit suicide out of a feeling of inadequacy relative to this new, more knowledgeable self?

Would I need entertainment still? Would games hold any draw for me if I am literally inside them?

On a similar note, would a "download" be available as well as an "upload?" Could I imprint myself onto circuitry, temporarily put my human self into "standby" while I play a game from a completely immersive point of view, then download the experience into my human brain and feel as if I'd actually been there? Would I decide to forgo the return to the physical world, deciding to live solely in the cyber universe? Would a computer virus be able to corrupt my brain patterns? If so, I would hope I should be smart enough to make regular backups before hopping into the cyberme, automatically recognizing corrupt data and restoring the last backup.

This line of thinking deserves its own thread, honestly. There's so much to discuss on the possibilities; let alone the hows, whys, and wherefores.

OMG the porn implications!


In all seriousness though, it seems like not enough details are given about B, C, and D to say what will come first.

My gut feeling is that B will come first since the already-developed brain just needs 5 things: glucose, electrolytes, oxygen, a sterile, biologically familiar environment, and a way to dump wastes of cellular respiration. We could probably do this today if we threw enough money at it and tossed the ethics book in the trash.

If they mean "avatar" as in something capable of normal human activities, then that's slightly more difficult. Because the first "avatars" are likely to be little more than glorified, mobile life-support systems, you would not want your brain in the first avatar.

In physiology, how our bodies deal with (and demand) all the junk we put in ourselves relies on the actions of many different enzymes we've only begun to understand and on pharmacokinetics. Due to practicality reasons, we'll probably toss out most of the complex metabolic pathways involved with breaking down alcohols, proteins, fats, and drugs, and the avatar will only need to consume simple sugars to survive. The avatar will probably lack a traditional stomach, so most of the sensation for hunger will be gone, but there will probably still be some lingering desires for comfort food fueled by past memories. And much the same for any other pleasure that any regular human would have.

Sure you can accommodate for these things (give the avatar the feedback-enabled sensory organs to actually fulfill these desires and a container to store the non-fuel food it "eats"), but that's a lot of R&D bucks to scratch an itch.

If the avatar is supposed to be self-maintaining/repairing, that's another (probably bigger) can of worms.



On the plus side, you can probably beat anyone in a drinking challenge, since your avatar body would not metabolize the alcohol at all, unless ethanol is actually your fuel (but just the one powering your artificial muscles, not the one keeping your brain going of course).
 

TheGurw

Well-Known Member
First, one cannot replicate a human being. It is so complex that not only is it impossible to make a sort-of "android", if you will, but also "evolve" from a single cell. Second, the human race was created by the all-powerful God, but made in such a way no one can replicate it with robotics or DNA alterations or random chemicals exposed to an electric charge. So in conclusion, this will not happen for many years to come, let alone even happening at all.
What is a human but an arrangement of atoms to form molecules, molecules to form tissues, tissues to form cells, cells to form body parts, and body parts to make the complete us? Nothing. We, as organisms, really aren't all that complicated. There are certainly creatures on our earth that are much more complex than us, at any rate.

Interestingly, though, evolution has been shown to occur over periods of time, and many changes to our own physiology have been uncovered. I'm afraid much of the scientific community leans towards the theory of evolution, which leaves you with hardly a leg to stand on.

The only thing that makes each of us unique is our brain - and I feel comfortable saying it won't be long before we map it completely. Contrary to what you're saying with this statement, you ARE a robot already - your brain doesn't actually receive any direct input from outside your body, and could not survive on its own, so in all reality, you have never actually seen anything.

Except for one small snag: You HAVE seen things because of random chemicals exposed to an electric charge. Welcome to how your nerves work, ie. everything you know is based off of electrical impulses.


Whether or not you believe God created us or we're descended from aliens, you should back up your claim with hard evidence, or be prepared to have your statement mercilessly picked apart by sleep-deprived, pissed-off electricians from Canadia.
 

Melexiious

Well-Known Member
What is a human but an arrangement of atoms to form molecules, molecules to form tissues, tissues to form cells, cells to form body parts, and body parts to make the complete us? Nothing. We, as organisms, really aren't all that complicated. There are certainly creatures on our earth that are much more complex than us, at any rate.

Interestingly, though, evolution has been shown to occur over periods of time, and many changes to our own physiology have been uncovered. I'm afraid much of the scientific community leans towards the theory of evolution, which leaves you with hardly a leg to stand on.

The only thing that makes each of us unique is our brain - and I feel comfortable saying it won't be long before we map it completely. Contrary to what you're saying with this statement, you ARE a robot already - your brain doesn't actually receive any direct input from outside your body, and could not survive on its own, so in all reality, you have never actually seen anything.

Except for one small snag: You HAVE seen things because of random chemicals exposed to an electric charge. Welcome to how your nerves work, ie. everything you know is based off of electrical impulses.


Whether or not you believe God created us or we're descended from aliens, you should back up your claim with hard evidence, or be prepared to have your statement mercilessly picked apart by sleep-deprived, pissed-off electricians from Canadia.
Was going to type this, glad you did it.
I have more important things to do.
Like learning to dance.

But no, seriously. If this happens, what would happen to over-population, of sorts?
Could we just... live in space?
Like... Space?
Just... floating around as androids?
 

Donvittorio

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's worth to follow this project up until quantum computers are actually functional.

Second, the human race was created by the all-powerful God, but made in such a way no one can replicate it with robotics or DNA alterations or random chemicals exposed to an electric charge.

Excuse me while I go laugh my atheistic ass off.
Please keep any beliefs and religions to relevant topics and threads. A thread about scientific research is definitely not one of those threads.
 
Top