When does an unborn organism become a person, if at all?

[Allimon]

But we also must consider: should we be trying to reduce the amount of infant deaths or those who seek abortions? Which comes first?

Do we, as a species, waste the years spent developing the one which is having the abortion or do we attempt to redevelop someone new without a mother in what may be less than satisfactory conditions? Who is to say the attempted abortion doesn't kill both of them for lack of safety?

 

[Beaubonic]

What about the medical problems that come from abortion such as death, infection, sterility, and injury to the internal organs? Also, I remember reading somewhere (I quoted it earlier in this thread, but can't remember where) that abortion usually causes intense or severe pain to the mother (and if the baby can feel pain, ouch).

Yes, laws haven't always promoted the well-being of people, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't. Also, women who have abortions can experience psychological trauma as well. Family members can also be affected by the abortion. There's also the point to consider that, even if the baby cannot physically feel pain, it is still experiencing or being subjected to something bad or unpleasant; in this case, the end of its life and its lack of a future.

Health issues caused by abortion will be worse if they're made illegal.

Take a gun from a homicidal maniac, he'll find another way to kill. Take abortion from a scared mother-to-be and she'll go for the back alley, the stairs, or maybe the coat hanger.

Also, who says a baby is even self aware enough to realize it's having something taken away from it, like a life/future? Who says a brain-dead coma patient is aware enough to realize anything when taken off of life support. You don't know. After a certain point in a pregnancy, a fetus responds to it's surroundings. It moves when touched and spoken to. Before that point, it doesn't do anything but sap nutrients from it's mother. There is no way to say that a baby is missing out on anything. For all you know, it could have been raised in an abusive home and wished it had been aborted.

As for the psychological trauma caused by abortions, that happens more when someone's forced into it, or when a person does so without warning the ones around them. Besides, psychological trauma can result from absolutely EVERYTHING that exists, so why is this so much different?

 

[Kris]

I'm just going to be a douche here and come out and say it, I believe the mother is more important than the unborn child, no matter what the circumstances. Especially if the mother wasn't at fault for the pregnancy, or maybe even if she was.

The unborn child doesn't have memories, and it doesn't individually look forward to a life. At times of most abortions, it isn't nearly sentient, and as I believe xHal said, you don't remember when you were in the womb. As much as I hate to say this, in comparison to the mother, the child in early developing stages is simply a developing ball of cells with potential. Nothing more.

It's on her conscience what to do with the developing child, not in the hands of politicians.

 

[Serenity595]

Do we, as a species, waste the years spent developing the one which is having the abortion or do we attempt to redevelop someone new without a mother in what may be less than satisfactory conditions? Who is to say the attempted abortion doesn't kill both of them for lack of safety?

I believe less than satisfactory conditions is better than dead.

The dangers of abortion is exactly what I'm trying to point out. Many women die in developing countries because of abortions; many women in all countries experiences medical and mental health problems due to the abortions. If abortions are not attempted, in almost all cases, the woman has a better chance of surviving (and of course, the baby).

Health issues caused by abortion will be worse if they're made illegal.

Take a gun from a homicidal maniac, he'll find another way to kill. Take abortion from a scared mother-to-be and she'll go for the back alley, the stairs, or maybe the coat hanger.

Also, who says a baby is even self aware enough to realize it's having something taken away from it, like a life/future? Who says a brain-dead coma patient is aware enough to realize anything when taken off of life support. You don't know. After a certain point in a pregnancy, a fetus responds to it's surroundings. It moves when touched and spoken to. Before that point, it doesn't do anything but sap nutrients from it's mother. There is no way to say that a baby is missing out on anything. For all you know, it could have been raised in an abusive home and wished it had been aborted.

As for the psychological trauma caused by abortions, that happens more when someone's forced into it, or when a person does so without warning the ones around them. Besides, psychological trauma can result from absolutely EVERYTHING that exists, so why is this so much different?

I disagree; I think health issues will improve. Since abortion would be illegal, less people would be willing to try it in a back alley. The less the abortions, the less the medical problems and the less the infant deaths.

A baby or coma patient who is not self aware doesn't justify the abortion or taking them off life support. This is delving more into "euthanasia" territory. Also, I don't believe it's our choice to question whether or not the baby would have wanted to live. We can't possibly know, so we shouldn't be muddling in "what ifs".

But it still happens. And there have been studies that have shown direct correlations between abortions and mental health difficulties in the mothers post-abortion. Would you like to see some info?

Also, you never answered my question. What makes a person a person?

I'm just going to be a douche here and come out and say it, I believe the mother is more important than the unborn child, no matter what the circumstances. Especially if the mother wasn't at fault for the pregnancy, or maybe even if she was.

The unborn child doesn't have memories, and it doesn't individually look forward to a life. At times of most abortions, it isn't nearly sentient, and as I believe xHal said, you don't remember when you were in the womb. As much as I hate to say this, in comparison to the mother, the child in early developing stages is simply a developing ball of cells with potential. Nothing more.

It's on her conscience what to do with the developing child, not in the hands of politicians.

Why is the mother more important than the child? In most circumstances, abortion is elective; not forced. Why then should the baby be killed because of the mother's undoing?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Pixiel: What makes a person a person? You tell me what you see an unborn child as, but I don't see how that doesn't make it a person.

 

[Audi]

Okay so I'm going back on my word but seriously

I disagree; I think health issues will improve. Since abortion would be illegal, less people would be willing to try it in a back alley. The less the abortions, the less the medical problems and the less the infant deaths.

Seriously what crack rock are you smoking

Legalizing something, in practice, allows better regulation.
For instance, in my city, in a particularly seedy part of town known for crime, the government has set up "safe injecting rooms."
These are supervised, clean rooms where junkies can shoot up.
They won't be arrested for doing drugs if they use one of these rooms. In other words, it's not a trap.
The idea is that people are inevitably going to do drugs. There is a problem with drugs in this area.
These rooms allow drug users to minimize the risk of taking drugs.

Another similar example I can think of is cigarettes.
In my country, all cigarette packets have plain packaging (that is, no brand logos, no flashy colours. Just a brown box with the name of the cigarette on it, covered in confronting health warnings.)
People don't like the health warnings. They're quite disgusting. Cigarettes are also heavily taxed here.
I know of a place where I can buy regular packaging, cut-rate cigarettes. Of course, this is illegal.

My point is this:

If something becomes legalized, governments can regulate the object or action. This means that the action / object is less risky, and in many cases, less desirable. For instance, the American states of Colorado and Washington have legalized marijuana usage, and now they're regulating it.

This means that those state governments can put in health guidelines, tax marijuana so that the price becomes an even bigger deterrant, and the quality of the drug can be standardized. All of these are good things.
Or take the opposite. Prohibition in the '30's didn't stop people drinking alcohol. And the alcohol being produced was often of questionable quality. Not to mention Prohibition fostered the growth of huge crime syndicates.

Abortion being legal is a good thing. It means that governments can regulate the process; ensure that those who carry out abortions adhere to guidelines designed to make it a safe process.
Illegalizing abortion will inevitably see the growth of illegal abortionists, who would ultimately have nothing stopping them from carrying out abortions in very unsafe conditions.

Remember that for most of human history, abortions have been illegal. It hasn't stopped people from having them. Abortions have always been a significant health risk... Until now.

So really

I think health issues will become endemic. Since abortion would be illegal, more people would be resorting to do it in a back alley. The more regulated abortions, the less the medical problems.

Disclaimer: this is in some ways a defeatist argument. In an ideal world, if something was made illegal than people wouldn't do it. But that doesn't happen. Please don't twist my words.

 

[Serenity595]

It may make abortions safer but my point is that it will increase the number of abortions. Making it illegal would decrease the number of abortions overall because they would be much harder to do. Let's take, for example, alcohol and meth. Alcohol is legal, meth is illegal. Alcohol is very widely consumed; meth is not. Making abortion legal increases the amount of times people will do said act. Will it make said act safer by regulating it? Of course. But will it kill more babies in the process? Definitely.


I don't recall saying those words. I don't even know what "endemic" means.

I'm not saying that if abortion would be made illegal that people wouldn't do it; I'm saying that overall, the amount of people doing it would be lessened, and of course, the amount of infant deaths that result from abortions would be lessened as well.

Since abortion would be illegal, less people would get abortions. The less the abortions, the less the medical problems and the less the infant deaths.

 

[Melexiious]

@Melexiious: Why is it not murder before the third trimester? As for my personal view (since you asked), I consider it murder the moment it is conceived.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that's before the baby can survive out of the womb. By the Third Trimester, the baby is just growing instead of still forming skeleton/organs and such.
If the baby can survive out of the womb, then it's not okay to abort.

 

[Serenity595]

So dependency makes it moral to abort the baby?

 

[Audi]

It may make abortions safer but my point is that it will increase the number of abortions. Making it illegal would decrease the number of abortions overall because they would be much harder to do. Let's take, for example, alcohol and meth. Alcohol is legal, meth is illegal. Alcohol is very widely consumed; meth is not. Making abortion legal increases the amount of times people will do said act. Will it make said act safer by regulating it? Of course. But will it kill more babies in the process? Definitely.


I don't recall saying those words. I don't even know what "endemic" means.

I'm not saying that if abortion would be made illegal that people wouldn't do it; I'm saying that overall, the amount of people doing it would be lessened, and of course, the amount of infant deaths that result from abortions would be lessened as well.

Since abortion would be illegal, less people would get abortions. The less the abortions, the less the medical problems and the less the infant deaths.

I disagree with your premise that illegalization would necessarily reduce the quantity of abortions that occur.
But I think the main point here is that it's not about the kid so much, it's about the mother.
Safe abortion -> a fetus dies and a mother lives
Failed abortion -> both die
No abortion -> the mother could still die, and rape would be an even unhappier prospect

Also, here you go.

 

[Beaubonic]

It may make abortions safer but my point is that it will increase the number of abortions. Making it illegal would decrease the number of abortions overall because they would be much harder to do. Let's take, for example, alcohol and meth. Alcohol is legal, meth is illegal. Alcohol is very widely consumed; meth is not. Making abortion legal increases the amount of times people will do said act. Will it make said act safer by regulating it? Of course. But will it kill more babies in the process? Definitely.


I don't recall saying those words. I don't even know what "endemic" means.

I'm not saying that if abortion would be made illegal that people wouldn't do it; I'm saying that overall, the amount of people doing it would be lessened, and of course, the amount of infant deaths that result from abortions would be lessened as well.

Since abortion would be illegal, less people would get abortions. The less the abortions, the less the medical problems and the less the infant deaths.

Abortion has nothing to do with infant death, it has to do with the termination of a pregnancy/fetus. Infant is after it's been born.

Some pro-life activists call abortion murder. However, “murder” is a legal term of art with extraordinary emotive power. It poisons the debate, since disagreement over the moral equivalence of a fetus to a human being is the very issue in dispute. Abortion is abortion, a different and much disputed form of killing.

-Quoted Article

Also, Serenity. I don't really know what makes a person a person. I'm not sure I really care, either. No matter where the line is drawn, my beliefs won't change. Abortion should be illegal unless in the case of rape or danger to the mother.

 

[EvieLegend]

Being a mother of three and almost dieing all three times only to get cancer and have my body dissected practically just to be cancer free I can say this. Although I knew I could die, I made a sacrifice for something I saw as a blessing. I am genetically doomed as my doctors say when it comes to reproduction. Every time I got pregnant it wasn't that happy omg I'm pregnant were having a baby moment for me and my family. It was more like shit she's pregnant, although a baby's gonna be awesome around here for the next 9 months she's gonna go through hell. The baby may not be healthy either... But I had a choice and I chose life for my child even if I died.

That's a rare case for many woman. On the other hand I could see where a woman would say they weren't up for the challenge. The risk was too scary for them and they chose to abort because of medical reasons like mine.

Aborting a child like guru said has to have circumstances if any at all.

Looking at the growth of a fetus and going through stages from days to weeks to months. As soon as the fetus has a heartbeat is it considered a human or being in my opinion.