RemOfShadows
Well-Known Member
I live in the UK right now, been here for a year and a bit.
I'm feeling lost.
- Thread starter RemOfShadows
- Start date
ChrisWsrn
Active Member
Ah, the joys of Socialism.
That is why I am a libertarian, Both parities suck.
What you say we need is Anarchy, that would be worse than Socialism for many reasons. Libertarianism is as close you can get to Anarchy while keeping a orderly society. Libertarianism is basically all the good stuff of Anarchy without the disadvantages of Anarchy.
Here are some examples:
Some parts of Mid-Africa today - Anarchy (BAD)
US in the 1800s - Libertarianism (GOOD)
US today - Post Democracy (Borderline Socialism) (CAUTION)
Most of Europe today - Socialism (COULD BE WORSE)
Detroit, Michigan, US - Post Socialism (Borderline Anarchy) (DEAD)
Also how almost every free government in history has evolved (Considering that they start at different stages):
Libertarian Republic -> Post Republic -> Libertarian Democracy -> Democracy -> Post Democracy -> Socialism -> Post Socialism -> Anarchy -> Authoritarianism -> Monarchy -> Revolution -> Anarchy (Short) -> GO BACK TO ANY STAGE
RemOfShadows
Well-Known Member
moderate anarchy? ;D
Audi
Well-Known Member
Can we stop here, please?
I'd like to explain why I disagree with your political viewpoint, but I think this is too divergent.
I'm not entirely qualified to explain, either. I don't want this to turn into the black hole that is Serenity discussions.
Can we keep this more on topic? Politics is only one facet to solving the world's problems, and it's just too touchy.
This is just me trying to give a kindness before stuff devolves. I mean, I'm prepared to give and take points, but let's talk about something else, eh?
PS: If you want to continue the discussion, hit me up on Mumble or send me a private message.
Creeper
Well-Known Member
Lol slow down there buddy. This isn't a thread for you to preach.
Stratadon
Well-Known Member
There is no modern day example of a Libertarian society that can support any fact you find about it on the internet. Libertarianism is untested in the modern world. Everything is spectacle and theory by the definition of science. I don't care what meaningless historical examples you are bound to throw at me, because they are precisely meaningless under the lens of the 21st century and modern day cultures and societies.
Instead of trying to shove your glorified opinion down people's throats and baptize us in the light of libertarianism, perhaps try and articulate why you believe libertarianism can work, from an opinionated standpoint, while you make meaningful observations and cause/effect statements. What you have said so far are some pretty absurd generalizations of an extremely in-depth topic.
xHallucinationx
Well-Known Member
I'm glad you like to say Libertarian is SOO much better. Libertarianism is built on Anarchy with some free trade bullshit only promoting globalization putting sweatshops up around the world further draining the economy of the country that is Libertarian. Libertarians only support greed and hate and that's nothing I believe. If Libertarianism went into place I can guarantee wee will still have corporations swaying votes. I sound preachy because I am preachy I am sick of people saying "Let's compromise and use Libertarianism!" Just like hair supplements for middle aged men it's a sign of giving up.
EDIT: Let me clear up Detroit for you. Anarchy is against globalization and free trade. Detroit was ruined because the steel and automotive industry was there. Globalization fucked it because car companies decided to export work, leaving everyone there jobless. So everyone became lower income and lower income housing came in. The city is decaying I can agree from the shitty rows of mayors it's had, but mostly because of shit opposite of Anarchy.
ChrisWsrn
Active Member
First, Sorry for topic bombing this thread.
It could be said that economic and social policy is on topic because RemOfShadows is saying that he feels that he was born to late for what he wants to do. The only things that changed during the past 60 years was technology and social policy.
Technology became more advance so you can do more with less time. This means that people have time to examine the world around them. This causes them to notice problems with the world and then try to correct them (Good Thing). The issue is that when you change something big, something else big breaks (Programers, you know what I mean). The problem is that when working with a sovereign body (Government/Megacorporation) both features and problems effect everyone under that body.
Science theory is proved through observed experimentation. The issue is that on large scale systems on the level of a sovereign body, experimentation can not be performed easily. The solution to this is to make observations on what happened in the past so we can learn from it. The only limitation of preforming science this way is that we don't have control of the initial conditions and therefor are limited on scenarios. This is the reason why I used historical examples above.
First:
The Internet IS an example on how Libertarianism works in modern sociality. Except for the ARPAnet nodes it was built entirely by corporations. Some corporations made money by providing internet access to people who what to get on the internet. Others made money by providing services to people over the internet. SOPA and PIPA where attempts to place laws that allowed social policy enforcement directly on the internet (Effects ALL internet users). Most laws that regulate what you can do while using the internet only effect what you can do while in a specific location (Example: COPA only applies to nodes in the US).
Second:
Honduras has set up City-States within its borders dubbed "Free Cities" to enhance there economy. These cities are pure libertarian and have a higher economic growth rate than the rest of the nation. This might be because the cities are new but based on historical scenarios this is because of the polices.
First you are correct that Libertarianism does cause sweatshops to pop up. That is a tradeoff from a social stand point but from a economic standpoint it causes jobs to be made. The thing about sweatshops is that they only show up where the labor force is uneducated and therefor cheep. In areas where the labor force is educated R&D labs show up which are the best things to have in a area.
You are also correct that it promotes globalization.
Now you are incorrect about it "draining the economy of the country that is Libertarian". If anything it will cause the manufacturing sector to grow and therefor cause the economy to grow. This is because a factory in a Libertarian country is cheaper to operate than one in a socialist country and corporations are greedy and care about saving money.
Correct, All humans are greedy, it is hardwired into our genetic structure to increase our chance to survive for another generation (Unless you are a Monk). Libertarianism economic policy (Capitalism) encourages greed by encouraging people to find a way to make what assets they have into more assets. This causes the greedy person to have more stuff of a type than they need or want. Because other people also have too much stuff of a type than they need or want but that person needs more stuff of that type they trade with each other. This causes everyone who makes stuff to have more stuff. This is the beauty of pure Capitalism, it harness the natural greed of all of us to make us produce stuff.
The idea of Libertarianism is that the governments only provide defense (Police, Self Defense Force (National Guard), and Military) and contract enforcement (Courts). Because of this there is on reason for corporations to waste money on swaying votes because unless they want to affect foreign policy there is nothing the government can do to effect them. Because of this corporations swaying votes are not a major issue.
First I am NOT promoting Anarchy. Anarchy is the WORST thing a nation can have.
You are correct that Anarchy is against globalization and free trade. And you are correct that what killed Detroit was stuff opposite of Anarchy.
You are correct that the steel and automotive industry leaving Detroit killed that city. They left because they the cost of operating plants in that city increased because of the social and economic policy implemented by the mayors of that city. Consumers were unwilling to buy American cars at a premium so the companies had to find a area to reduce costs. It got to the point that the companies had to move operations to other states to still be competitive with imported cars.
All of the above is a heavily simplified explanation for time reasons. I can give longer explanations and provide more examples but it would take a while to explain. It would be much easer for me to answer questions about it.
EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text and thank-you for reading this wall of text.
It could be said that economic and social policy is on topic because RemOfShadows is saying that he feels that he was born to late for what he wants to do. The only things that changed during the past 60 years was technology and social policy.
Technology became more advance so you can do more with less time. This means that people have time to examine the world around them. This causes them to notice problems with the world and then try to correct them (Good Thing). The issue is that when you change something big, something else big breaks (Programers, you know what I mean). The problem is that when working with a sovereign body (Government/Megacorporation) both features and problems effect everyone under that body.
Science theory is proved through observed experimentation. The issue is that on large scale systems on the level of a sovereign body, experimentation can not be performed easily. The solution to this is to make observations on what happened in the past so we can learn from it. The only limitation of preforming science this way is that we don't have control of the initial conditions and therefor are limited on scenarios. This is the reason why I used historical examples above.
First:
The Internet IS an example on how Libertarianism works in modern sociality. Except for the ARPAnet nodes it was built entirely by corporations. Some corporations made money by providing internet access to people who what to get on the internet. Others made money by providing services to people over the internet. SOPA and PIPA where attempts to place laws that allowed social policy enforcement directly on the internet (Effects ALL internet users). Most laws that regulate what you can do while using the internet only effect what you can do while in a specific location (Example: COPA only applies to nodes in the US).
Second:
Honduras has set up City-States within its borders dubbed "Free Cities" to enhance there economy. These cities are pure libertarian and have a higher economic growth rate than the rest of the nation. This might be because the cities are new but based on historical scenarios this is because of the polices.
First you are correct that Libertarianism does cause sweatshops to pop up. That is a tradeoff from a social stand point but from a economic standpoint it causes jobs to be made. The thing about sweatshops is that they only show up where the labor force is uneducated and therefor cheep. In areas where the labor force is educated R&D labs show up which are the best things to have in a area.
You are also correct that it promotes globalization.
Now you are incorrect about it "draining the economy of the country that is Libertarian". If anything it will cause the manufacturing sector to grow and therefor cause the economy to grow. This is because a factory in a Libertarian country is cheaper to operate than one in a socialist country and corporations are greedy and care about saving money.
Correct, All humans are greedy, it is hardwired into our genetic structure to increase our chance to survive for another generation (Unless you are a Monk). Libertarianism economic policy (Capitalism) encourages greed by encouraging people to find a way to make what assets they have into more assets. This causes the greedy person to have more stuff of a type than they need or want. Because other people also have too much stuff of a type than they need or want but that person needs more stuff of that type they trade with each other. This causes everyone who makes stuff to have more stuff. This is the beauty of pure Capitalism, it harness the natural greed of all of us to make us produce stuff.
The idea of Libertarianism is that the governments only provide defense (Police, Self Defense Force (National Guard), and Military) and contract enforcement (Courts). Because of this there is on reason for corporations to waste money on swaying votes because unless they want to affect foreign policy there is nothing the government can do to effect them. Because of this corporations swaying votes are not a major issue.
First I am NOT promoting Anarchy. Anarchy is the WORST thing a nation can have.
You are correct that Anarchy is against globalization and free trade. And you are correct that what killed Detroit was stuff opposite of Anarchy.
You are correct that the steel and automotive industry leaving Detroit killed that city. They left because they the cost of operating plants in that city increased because of the social and economic policy implemented by the mayors of that city. Consumers were unwilling to buy American cars at a premium so the companies had to find a area to reduce costs. It got to the point that the companies had to move operations to other states to still be competitive with imported cars.
All of the above is a heavily simplified explanation for time reasons. I can give longer explanations and provide more examples but it would take a while to explain. It would be much easer for me to answer questions about it.
EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text and thank-you for reading this wall of text.
JHawk
Active Member
If you think our generation has been dealt a shit-sandwich and told to deal with it, I understand. The feeling is mutual, if not more so, over here in the US, and while I think it's a fairly natural thing to feel, there's also not much we can change by wishing for one thing or another.
For anyone who wants, I found an interesting generation cycle theory the other day, and I think Wikipedia explains it best in this case. While it pertains more to those who reside in North America, there are likely parallels across the world. Interesting thing to note is that, by the timeline, we are at the beginning of a "Crisis" of some sort.
mountainboy965
Well-Known Member
So let's start a revolution and fuck the world up some more?
On a more serious note, good things rarely happen to those who sit around, do nothing, and complain. The best way to make a change, is to be the change. To quote George Burns, "Don't stay in bed, unless you can make money in bed." In other words, if you don't have the opportunities provided to you like the rich kid down the street, you will need to make the opportunities happen for yourself.
It's like on the movie The Truman Show. If Truman truly wanted to leave the island, he could. It was going to take tremendous effort, determination, and perhaps even his life, in order for him to leave. The other alternative for Truman was to simply complain and be stuck in his miserable one-dimensional life. However, as we find out at the end of the movie, Truman found a way to conquer his fears and a multi-billion dollar industry (an industry hell-bent on keeping his life a lie) in order to find out the truth about himself.
Having said all that, I would like to point out the obvious- there is absolutely nothing wrong with a rich guy making himself richer, he is simply being a good steward of his money. Now, how the rich guy made more money is going to be the test of his character.
xHallucinationx
Well-Known Member
Assuming I sit at my computer and complain about politics isn't it. Revolution is the only way to fix these corrupted countries with votes solely from lobbying. Saying it won't only makes you the silent majority and if you are, I have no respect for you.So let's start a revolution and fuck the world up some more?
On a more serious note, good things rarely happen to those who sit around, do nothing, and complain. The best way to make a change, is to be the change. To quote George Burns, "Don't stay in bed, unless you can make money in bed." In other words, if you don't have the opportunities provided to you like the rich kid down the street, you will need to make the opportunities happen for yourself.
It's like on the movie The Truman Show. If Truman truly wanted to leave the island, he could. It was going to take tremendous effort, determination, and perhaps even his life, in order for him to leave. The other alternative for Truman was to simply complain and be stuck in his miserable one-dimensional life. However, as we find out at the end of the movie, Truman found a way to conquer his fears and a multi-billion dollar industry (an industry hell-bent on keeping his life a lie) in order to find out the truth about himself.
Having said all that, I would like to point out the obvious- there is absolutely nothing wrong with a rich guy making himself richer, he is simply being a good steward of his money. Now, how the rich guy made more money is going to be the test of his character.
Audi
Well-Known Member
So edgy, I think I cut myself.
mountainboy965
Well-Known Member
I have to say, that I found that to be an incredibly interesting read. Time for me to start saving my money before Obamacare solidifies the definition of the 4th turning.
MagicForDummies
Well-Known Member
I think the whole problem in this thread stems from not having enough dough in yo pockets.
How does get more moneys?
Well... going back in time before the internetz is a horrible choice. Or maybe you want to live off the grid in the present or at least in the countryside where people still have fundamental principles of compassion like Tibet.
You could always try to be a professional poker player. (at ye own peril)
How does get more moneys?
Well... going back in time before the internetz is a horrible choice. Or maybe you want to live off the grid in the present or at least in the countryside where people still have fundamental principles of compassion like Tibet.
You could always try to be a professional poker player. (at ye own peril)
ChrisWsrn
Active Member
Both topics are VERY related. Also this happens on many other sites as well. Still this is a interesting thread to read.
crafteroftemines
Active Member
I know what im gonna do in life, I'm gonna get a major in Philosophy and a Minor in Psychology, and build computers for a living
Audi
Well-Known Member
Not an awful gameplan, my friend.
ienjoywaffles
Well-Known Member
Because that has never ended badly for anyone ever.
crafteroftemines
Active Member
my point exactly