Taiji Dolphin Drive Hunt

[Skryter]

I never said anything against killing animals for food. In fact, most of my favorite foods are from animal meat.
What I'm against is killing them for no reason at all.

I agree with that sentiment, as I somewhat stated in the second part of my original post.

 

[Kris]

But they aren't.

Whoa whoa whoa, that's a bold statement.

I said the meat isn't eaten often, but it's still put on the shelves in supermarkets/bought by other countries.

This isn't some mindless killing then dumping back into the ocean. The fishermen are killing to sell, and they sell all of it. What's done with the meat/dolphins they kill/capture for show isn't their concern/the concern of Japan at all.

Which brings us back to the Mercury issue, which I still can't even defend. Good thing it's not eaten often.

 

[thee_pro]

- meat is bad for you, and is a horrible strain on our environment and economy.

If it is so bad for us to consume, then why do they make it taste so good?

 

[Mightythedj23]

I've read all through this, and i can say i am pretty in favour of slitting the fishermen's throats and letting the ocean take care of the rest.

The reason i myself feel the way i do about this is regardless of the animal's intelligence (the dolphins, in this case) is because humans are using a thing called TOOLS against them that they don't encounter in nature; how many fucking nets and other such equipment just appears naturally? I feel the same way about slaughterhouses, and fur factories;

The animal is being attacked/kill with man-made devices it never encountered before, therefore had no defense from it from the start.

 

[Kris]

I feel the same way about slaughterhouses, and fur factories;

This statement alone makes your argument more respectable and valid than the rest.

This dolphin hunting is just like any other mass slaughtering establishment, save that these dolphins are wild.

No more, no less.

 

[Anaxo]

I feel it's fairly disgusting to an animal if you're not actually doing it for food (with the exceptions of pests). I mean, I do disagree that it's almost as bad as killing people. I don't think of humans as animals, because I don't believe that they are. I'm a creationist (go ahead, crucify me). But anyways, my point isn't to talk about humanity or the origins thereof.

I was always taught from a young age that if you kill something, you eat it. I remember shooting a pigeon in my back yard with my pellet gun when I was younger, my dad gutted it and skinned it, and I had it for dinner. My older brother also did the same thing with a squirrel a few years before, and he ate it alongside eggs for breakfast.

I've never equated animals with people, but I do believe it's wrong to leave an animal suffering when something can be done about it. I have no problem with hunting seals, but I do have a problem with the cruel way in which it is done, as they are often bludgeoned to near death, skinned alive, and left to die slowly. I think that if there's a seal hunt, they should be done with a shot to the head, and there shouldn't be such a large waste of the carcass. Also, the matter of sustainability needs to be addressed, there's no reason with the technology we have today that an animal should go extinct, however, I think that it's ridiculous that some people aren't allowed to build on land they own because an eagle has nested there. (This happened to my uncle who owns 100 acres, he's not legally allowed to build on almost all of it)

So yeah, in conclusion, I think the way in which the whalers kill the dolphins is inhumane. A less painless way needs to be found to kill them.

 

[Kris]

So yeah, in conclusion, I think the way in which the whalers kill the dolphins is inhumane. A less painless way needs to be found to kill them.

Oh this has been taken care of years ago, but it's unconfirmed whether the whalers actually use the specialized knives the government makes them use.

 

[Vincent2128]

This dolphin hunting is just like any other mass slaughtering establishment, save that these dolphins are wild.

No more, no less.

But, according to an academic paper published in 2013 in the Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science titled A Veterinary and Behavioral Analysis of Dolphin Killing Methods Currently Used in the 'Drive Hunt' in Taiji, Japan, those killing methods involving driving a rod into the spine and using a pin to stop bleeding that is used by the Taiji Japanese creates such terror and pain that it would be illegal to kill cows in Japan in this manner. Several veterinarians and behavioral scientists evaluated the current Taiji Japanese killing method and concluded that "This killing method….would not be tolerated or permitted in any regulated slaughterhouse process in the developed world."

 

[Kris]

The Japanese do not tolerate it-- At a governmental level. They issued out special knives, made to sever the spinal cord of the dolphins instantaneously. However it is very difficult to use, and likely requires training. So it's a possibility that the fishermen are not using it.

(I think they started using the knives in 2011, but I'm not sure)

 

[TheGurw]

The Japanese do not tolerate it-- At a governmental level. They issued out special knives, made to sever the spinal cord of the dolphins instantaneously. However it is very difficult to use, and likely requires training. So it's a possibility that the fishermen are not using it.

(I think they started using the knives in 2011, but I'm not sure)

If they didn't tolerate it, they'd revoke licenses and hand out several million dollar (equivalent) fines - and actually enforce the laws with Fish and Wildlife (equivalent) patrols. This is what happens when you're caught fishing commercially without a license in Canada. Not kidding - they take the rough value of your catch, multiply by a number up to 50 (which can equate to over $100M), and give you a ticket and a court date.

 

[Kris]

If they didn't tolerate it, they'd revoke licenses and hand out several million dollar (equivalent) fines - and actually enforce the laws with Fish and Wildlife (equivalent) patrols. This is what happens when you're caught fishing commercially without a license in Canada. Not kidding - they take the rough value of your catch, multiply by a number up to 50 (which can equate to over $100M), and give you a ticket and a court date.

Japan has MUCH more lax laws as far as fishing and boating compared to other countries, and what the fishermen are doing is legal.

I will admit that what I said above was very hasty and perhaps ill-informed, after further reading, (still not sure), I do believe that they might not be forced by law to use the knives, it may have only been a suggestion to keep the activists off the backs of the fishermen.

 

[Miguel]

So after researching and reading posts made in this thread, here's the most informed response I can give.

((Wall Of Text Warning))​

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this practice.

Unfortunately, on a political level, this is true. But on a moral level, it isn't accepted, as these hunts are particularly brutal.

The methods used in which they capture the dolphins, scaring them into a shallow area and then blocking the only out to sea, causes the dolphins to lose access to any food source, causes strangulation to occur as dolphins get stuck in the nets trying to free themselves, and the emotional trauma that these dolphins go through as they panic to get out.

Not on a social/moral level, we aren't. Only on a scientific level.

This statement is essentially false, as the social behavior of not only dolphins closely mimics our social behavior, but many other animals such as monkeys, elephants, and whales have very similar behaviors as well.

Dolphins are social, living in pods of up to a dozen individuals. In places with a high abundance of food, pods can merge temporarily, forming a superpod; such groupings may exceed 1,000 dolphins. Individual dolphins communicate using a variety of clicks, whistle-like sounds and other vocalizations. Membership in pods is not rigid; interchange is common. Dolphins can, however, establish strong social bonds; they will stay with injured or ill individuals, even helping them to breathe by bringing them to the surface if needed.

How does this relate to us, you say?

You can consider this like a group of friends that hang out with each other at lunch, having normal conversations about classes or whatever. Now, nobody in the group of friends is forced to sit with certain people, so they are free to sit wherever they want when they want. When two friends enjoy each other's company, they normally become best friends and, best friends tend to do things for each other that they wouldn't do for just anyone.

So to sum up, dolphins eat together, talk to one another, and can have best friends.

Exactly, the world revolves around money. The fishermen get money because they do this, and there are no laws against it.

What more is there to it?

He pretty much summed up why things exists.

That's exactly the problem:
There aren't laws against such horrible things. The treatments of animals in law is just disgusting.

There are some laws pertaining to such hunts in certain countries. But unfortunately, animals will always be considered lesser beings, and will never receive the protection they deserve.

I never said anything against killing animals for food. In fact, most of my favorite foods are from animal meat.
What I'm against is killing them for no reason at all.
If they were killing dolphins for their meat, I wouldn't say a thing.
But they aren't.

But they are killing dolphins for their meat. They do kill MORE than they plan to harvest, but that comes from not only the fisherman, but the conditions the dolphins are left in over night. Also,

Some of the dolphins are sold to aquatic parks, instead of slaughtered

The fisherman do spare some of the dolphins, which is good, but no dolphin should be slaughtered in the first place.

I've read all through this, and i can say i am pretty in favour of slitting the fishermen's throats and letting the ocean take care of the rest.

The reason i myself feel the way i do about this is regardless of the animal's intelligence (the dolphins, in this case) is because humans are using a thing called TOOLS against them that they don't encounter in nature; how many fucking nets and other such equipment just appears naturally? I feel the same way about slaughterhouses, and fur factories;

The animal is being attacked/kill with man-made devices it never encountered before, therefore had no defense from it from the start.

Ok yes, the animal is pretty much defenseless, but you also have to remember that most of these animals are smarter, or can out smart us, and also has natural survival tools that we as humans do not have. From what i believe your saying, instead of using a knife or some tool that can make death of slaughterhouse animals slightly less painful, and quicker, would rather us bludgeon the animal to death with a rock? Because at least a knife to the brain is quick.

This dolphin hunting is just like any other mass slaughtering establishment, save that these dolphins are wild.

No more, no less.

No, it's not. If it was like any other mass slaughtering establishment, why is it that we aren't mass breeding dolphins for their meat, like we do with cows and chickens? We have dolphins in captivity in SeaWorld and other aquariums, why don't we start forcing them to breed so we can even the playing field?

The Japanese do not tolerate it-- At a governmental level. They issued out special knives, made to sever the spinal cord of the dolphins instantaneously. However it is very difficult to use, and likely requires training. So it's a possibility that the fishermen are not using it.

(I think they started using the knives in 2011, but I'm not sure)

Gurw OP
~~~~~~~~
Ok, my personal opinion of the matter.

Dolphins are creatures that are highly intelligent and, like whales, do not deserve the treatment that they are receiving. Now, that sad part is, in this world, if it makes money, people will keep on doing it. There are negative affects to hunting dolphins (besides the major drop in population) such as the Mercury poisoning, that is really a risk when eating fish in general.

And just so it's out there, Japan isn't the only country that does this, it's just the most famous participant.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji_dolphin_drive_hunt
http://savejapandolphins.org/blog/post/first-hunt-for-me-in-taiji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin#Behavior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_animal


TL;DR:

I did homework, found some holes in pretty much everyone's arguments (Mostly Kris) and I like to think that I gave a pretty well educated, unbiased opinion.

 

[Kris]

I did homework, found some holes in pretty much everyone's arguments (Mostly Kris) and I like to think that I gave a pretty well educated, unbiased opinion.

Yeah, I do recognize that my arguments are very swiss cheesy, and based entirely on my opinion that animals in general, (Yes, even the almighty intelligent dolphins), are not equal to us.

No, it's not. If it was like any other mass slaughtering establishment, why is it that we aren't mass breeding dolphins for their meat, like we do with cows and chickens? We have dolphins in captivity in SeaWorld and other aquariums, why don't we start forcing them to breed so we can even the playing field?

Because that's more expensive.

This statement is essentially false, as the social behavior of not only dolphins closely mimics our social behavior, but many other animals such as monkeys, elephants, and whales have very similar behaviors as well.

Again, I guess this boils down to me not thinking animals are equal to humans.

This really is a very opinionated argument, I don't feel as if it'll get anywhere.

 

[TheGurw]

Because that's more expensive.

No it's not. It's also safer, more humane, and doesn't as negatively affect the environment and ecosystems. It's actually more profitable as you can breed for the genetics you want, and harvest regularly as opposed to once per year.

EDIT: I actually don't advocate for slaughterhouses either, but if I have to pick, it's the lesser of two evils.

 

[Kris]

No it's not. It's also safer, more humane, and doesn't as negatively affect the environment and ecosystems. It's actually more profitable as you can breed for the genetics you want, and harvest regularly as opposed to once per year.

EDIT: I actually don't advocate for slaughterhouses either, but if I have to pick, it's the lesser of two evils.

I still don't think you could bring in the numbers that Taiji brings in with a slaughterhouse. And I can understand how it could be more profitable, but these are just about 20 fishermen we're talking about here. Not some corporation.

 

[Miguel]

This really is a very opinionated argument, I don't feel as if it'll get anywhere.

What I came up with was literal hours of research, beginning very early this morning. I tried to be as unpartial as I could when stating facts. (Except for my personal opinion, since it's pretty biased.)

 

[Kris]

What I came up with was literal hours of research, beginning very early this morning. I tried to be as unpartial as I could when stating facts. (Except for my personal opinion, since it's pretty biased.)

I wasn't referring to your argument, I was referring to this discussion in general. And even then the interpretation of the facts is very opinionated.

You'd take those facts and say, "But it's wrong."

I'd take those facts and say, "But it works."

 

[TheGurw]

I still don't think you could bring in the numbers that Taiji brings in with a slaughterhouse. And I can understand how it could be more profitable, but these are just about 20 fishermen we're talking about here. Not some corporation.

And multi-million-dollar fisheries are run by about 10 staff. Your point?

Yes, you can bring in the numbers, cattle ranches prove that reliably enough. And for "responsibly-bred" products and higher-quality stock, you can get higher profits too.

 

[Kris]

And multi-million-dollar fisheries are run by about 10 staff. Your point?

Yes, you can bring in the numbers, cattle ranches prove that reliably enough. And for "responsibly-bred" products and higher-quality stock, you can get higher profits too.

Wouldn't that require subsidization though?

 

[TheGurw]

Wouldn't that require subsidization though?

Did the ranchers who started domesticating and breeding livestock of any other type require subsidies?

Granted, we live in a different world now, but the answer is no - though the government might want to offer financial incentives to encourage the switch.

The profit margin would obviously be slim for the first decade or so. But it would catch on soon enough, and those with the foresight to jump in early would soon outstrip those still slaughtering wildlife with lower priced, higher profit dolphin meat, putting the latter out of business. Eventually, you'll see a species diversification between domesticated and selectively bred dolphins and wild dolphins, where wild dolphin is regarded as tasteless, stringy, and unsatisfying compared to the livestock relatives.