When does an unborn organism become a person, if at all?

That's way too simple.

I agree that there is the burden of the possibility of pregnancy after sex, but there are so many ways to prevent getting pregnant that I don't feel like that is a strong argument. If you're seriously that worried about getting a girl pregnant, make her take the pill responsibly, use a lubricant, wear a good condom that fits, and orgasm outside of her vagina.

And what if that does not work? Well, I hope that person accepts the aforementioned responsibility.
Regardless of any and all precautions you take, there is still a small, but significant chance of fertilization. Sex was specifically designed to create offspring. In any case, people who properly prevent pregnancy are extremely rare to see at abortion clinics. The vast majority are people who didn't, or didn't use multiple methods of birth control. Condoms break, pills lose effectiveness, spermicides expire prematurely, and pulling out isn't even a legitimately recognized method (pre-cum is just as potent as the actual orgasm, surprised you didn't know).
 
That's way too simple.

I agree that there is the burden of the possibility of pregnancy after sex, but there are so many ways to prevent getting pregnant that I don't feel like that is a strong argument. If you're seriously that worried about getting a girl pregnant, make her take the pill responsibly, use a lubricant, wear a good condom that fits, and orgasm outside of her vagina.

And what if that does not work? Well, I hope that person accepts the aforementioned responsibility.

Just saying, I assume Gurw is commenting on unprotected intercourse rather than protected intercourse. Regardless he has a point as sex was originally designed for the sole purpose of reproduction before it was tied with romance and the like.
 
I guess it comes down again whether or not it is a person. However, I once encountered an idea that equated a fetus to a parasite in that both parasites and fetuses require their host in order to grow and develop. How do you feel about this idea?

Well, try telling that to a pregnant lady at a party and see what happens. "How's the little parasite doing?" *gets smacked* :P

The thing with a a parasite is that it is of a different species than the host. It is incredibly smaller than the host by nature. A human embryo/fetus is a human embryo/fetus. It would only be a parasite if the host was not a human (which is impossible, since it's a human baby).

Even if you somehow disagreed with this, I'll come back to my point on the supposed metaphysical reality of a baby. Why is an unborn baby only a baby when people want it to be one?

There's a paradox there; can an organism appreciate life when it doesn't exist? Or rather, can a child value life when it's not living?

To the first question: an organism [the baby] does exist once it is conceived.
To the second question: the unborn child is living in the sense that is alive; it isn't dead

Um, can a baby really make a decision?
Blastocysts don't go "I think I'm going to grow an eyeball today." Moreover, their brains aren't fully developed.
Can they think? I don't think so.

By decision I meant in the future tense, but also the present tense. In the present tense because eventually, once the embryo develops into a fetus, it does have cognitive function and can experience pain. Pain is a survival mechanism; so when a baby experiences pain (such as when it is killed in the later stages of a pregnancy), it is making the decision to want to survive. Also, in the future tense because if that baby is not aborted, it will eventually grow up and be old enough to think to itself, "Hey, I'm glad my mother didn't abort me."

Even so, "I think, therefore I am", does not make a person a person. It only makes the person know for a fact that he exists in his reality. A lack of a yet to be developed brain does not make a unborn baby no longer an unborn baby.

Life Site News is an ultraconservative website that's been described as an "online anti-abortion journal" by the (conservative) newspaper National Post. It's not a reliable source of information. They've been ousted for lying and I'd be pretty happy to say that any information from that site is bollocks.

Well, let's consider how many abortions are actually from rape victims.

"Another important statistic that you must al-ways cite is also from the Guttmacher Institute. In the last 25 years Guttmacher has conducted two major studies asking women why they chose abortion and their answers have remained basically the same: Only 7% of women report that their abortion was because of a health reason or a possible health problem with the baby, and less than half a percent report that their abortion was because they became pregnant as a result of rape." - reference: Lawrence B. Finer et al., 113-14.

92% of abortions in America are purely elective -- done on healthy women to end the lives of healthy children."


- reference: Lawrence B. Finer et al., 113-14.

Those are ridiculous examples. From a purely functional perspective, abortion is not illegal (at least in my country), whereas these things are. Other people here 'ave also raised other issues with this shit so I won't bother parroting.

It used to be illegal; so are you saying that just because something is currently legal that that makes it the right thing to do? I mean, look at marijuana: that used to be illegal but now it's becoming legal. But since it is still illegal, shouldn't that mean with that same logic that it should stay illegal?

Why not? A fetus is not responsible for its existence and it can't meaningfully affect its existence otherwise.
I do agree it's the parent's "fault"; it's perhaps the mother's "fault" that she can conceive, or the father's "fault" that he's got such healthy sperm.
I wouldn't argue that a child is necessarily a problem; but if parents want to abort a child then yeah, evidently there's a problem. I still hold that people don't just abort for no reason - I have something against people who do. I have little sympathy for a rich white girl who got knocked up at a house party that wants her dad to pay for an abortion. But that's beside the point, no?

But that's like saying it's OK for a man to kill another man because that man's not responsible for his own existence (technically, no one is; we all come from our mothers, and our mothers come from our grandmothers, and so on) and because that man doesn't meaningfully affect his own existence otherwise (maybe he's a hermit or something).

Why should there be a reason where it is right to abort a baby? Let's equate that to the world we live in: why should there be a reason where it is right to murder someone (murder, not kill; we're not talking about self-defense here :P).

I think this is our point of disconnection - I see abortion as a purely functional thing. If someone makes the call that they can't deal with the responsibility of having a child, etc etc, then abortion should be an option. I don't think there's any moral issue with abortion, or rather, there shouldn't be. It is ultimately the parent's decision. If their morals inform them that abortion is wrong, so be it. I just don't think they should be told what to do.

The problem with a lot of these pro-life campaigns is that they're too focused on telling people what to do. It's forceful and in my mind, irresponsible. No-one can account for every possible preference. It's like those abstinence campaigns that compare the sexually active to used pieces of gum. Too often conservative campaigns like these aim to shame.

But if we equate "abortion" to "murder" then it does become a moral issue, rather than just a functional one.

Well, say we lived in a society where it was OK to steal from the poor. Would it be wrong if I had a campaign to point out that it is immoral to steal from the poor?

My personal aim isn't to shame, it's to prevent. If someone has already had an abortion, nothing I can say will change that. I can pity them and be nice to them but I can't bring back that unborn baby either. However, if I can prevent someone from having an abortion, even if it's just one person, then I think all of this is not in vain.

I'm not sure how you got to this conclusion.
As far as I know, abortion isn't illegal in your context (the US, I presume) or in my context (FUCKIN' 'STRAYA MATE).
While religion does enter the abortion debate, many people aren't religious.
And I see it like this:
-> if it's not against the law &
-> it's not against society
-> then it's perfectly moral
-> so people should do that.

I know that's an oblique arguement and I don't want to be held to that. Take anorexia. It's not against the law and it doesn't affect others in society, but I don't think it's moral. I think it's sad that people feel like that and I think that society should give more of a shit about it. You've got teenage girls starvin' themselves and people don't care. There's industries built around impossible body images, and I think that's immoral.
But I deviate off-topic.

I'm not even sure what I was meaning anymore. :P

But if a woman is pregnant, I believe she has the right to get an abortion.

So why does she have that right?

Also totally Mumble me bro

I don't have the slightest clue on how to use Mumble xD
 
I've read nothing but the title. I don't know when they start to become a person, maybe when they can start to feel pain? Maybe when they're at an age where they stand a greater than 50% chance of surviving outside their mother's womb? I do know that I feel abortion should be illegal. I feel that the circumstances of Rape, Incest, & Danger to the mother's life should be excluded from the ban, but I also feel that if you're just a dumb kid who went out and got pregnant, suck it up and deal with it. It's your fault, not the baby's...
 
After reading the post beneath mine, I just have to, it's not a baby. It is a fetus. It does not have the capacity to think. It does not know that it is supposedly being "robbed" of anything.
**fetus
***FETUS.

So I guess you're meaning "I (the unborn baby) do not think, therefore, I am not."

Thinking doesn't make a person a person. What about a human vegetable?

Also, a fetus is just a term used to describe the later development of an unborn organism. Saying "a baby isn't a baby, it's a fetus" is like saying "a chair isn't a chair, it's a seat". It's pointing out a contradiction of definition when there is no contradiction to be found.
 
So I guess you're meaning "I (the unborn baby) do not think, therefore, I am not."

Thinking doesn't make a person a person. What about a human vegetable?

Also, a fetus is just a term used to describe the later development of an unborn organism. Saying "a baby isn't a baby, it's a fetus" is like saying "a chair isn't a chair, it's a seat". It's pointing out a contradiction of definition when there is no contradiction to be found.

Alright, alright. I'm not gonna say anymore, I'm extremely both pro-choice and feminist (both mixing in with each other strongly) so I don't wanna stray this to something it isn't.
I get your point, though.
 
Just saying, I assume Gurw is commenting on unprotected intercourse rather than protected intercourse. Regardless he has a point as sex was originally designed for the sole purpose of reproduction before it was tied with romance and the like.
Oh, alright then. Yes, completely unprotected intercourse will obviously more than likely have consequences.
(pre-cum is just as potent as the actual orgasm, surprised you didn't know).
I wouldn't say that. The content of pre-cum has been found to contain varied or no actual content of sperm.

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/14647273.2010.520798
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12762415?dopt=Abstract
 
I've read nothing but the title. I don't know when they start to become a person, maybe when they can start to feel pain? Maybe when they're at an age where they stand a greater than 50% chance of surviving outside their mother's womb? I do know that I feel abortion should be illegal. I feel that the circumstances of Rape, Incest, & Danger to the mother's life should be excluded from the ban, but I also feel that if you're just a dumb kid who went out and got pregnant, suck it up and deal with it. It's your fault, not the baby's...
I make no allowances for incest on its own simply because the chances of unwanted genetically inherited conditions are rather low, contrary to popular belief. Standard separation allows approximately 3% chance of unwanted traits, first cousin incest is 6.25%. I don't think that those are different enough to allow for slack in the rules.
 
I wouldn't say that. The content of pre-cum has been found to contain varied or no actual content of sperm.

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/14647273.2010.520798
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12762415?dopt=Abstract
Regardless, if there is any amount of sperm in the pre-cum at any point in time during intercourse, it's just as potent as an orgasm. All it takes is one, kiddies.

I make no allowances for incest on its own simply because the chances of unwanted genetically inherited conditions are rather low, contrary to popular belief. Standard separation allows approximately 3% chance of unwanted traits, first cousin incest is 6.25%. I don't think that those are different enough to allow for slack in the rules.
A brother and sister in a loving and consensual relationship; their fault. However, incest typically sits hand-in-hand with rape, however.
 
Well, try telling that to a pregnant lady at a party and see what happens. "How's the little parasite doing?" *gets smacked* :P

The thing with a a parasite is that it is of a different species than the host. It is incredibly smaller than the host by nature. A human embryo/fetus is a human embryo/fetus. It would only be a parasite if the host was not a human (which is impossible, since it's a human baby).

Even if you somehow disagreed with this, I'll come back to my point on the supposed metaphysical reality of a baby. Why is an unborn baby only a baby when people want it to be one?



To the first question: an organism [the baby] does exist once it is conceived.
To the second question: the unborn child is living in the sense that is alive; it isn't dead



By decision I meant in the future tense, but also the present tense. In the present tense because eventually, once the embryo develops into a fetus, it does have cognitive function and can experience pain. Pain is a survival mechanism; so when a baby experiences pain (such as when it is killed in the later stages of a pregnancy), it is making the decision to want to survive. Also, in the future tense because if that baby is not aborted, it will eventually grow up and be old enough to think to itself, "Hey, I'm glad my mother didn't abort me."

Even so, "I think, therefore I am", does not make a person a person. It only makes the person know for a fact that he exists in his reality. A lack of a yet to be developed brain does not make a unborn baby no longer an unborn baby.



Well, let's consider how many abortions are actually from rape victims.

"Another important statistic that you must al-ways cite is also from the Guttmacher Institute. In the last 25 years Guttmacher has conducted two major studies asking women why they chose abortion and their answers have remained basically the same: Only 7% of women report that their abortion was because of a health reason or a possible health problem with the baby, and less than half a percent report that their abortion was because they became pregnant as a result of rape." - reference: Lawrence B. Finer et al., 113-14.

92% of abortions in America are purely elective -- done on healthy women to end the lives of healthy children."


- reference: Lawrence B. Finer et al., 113-14.



It used to be illegal; so are you saying that just because something is currently legal that that makes it the right thing to do? I mean, look at marijuana: that used to be illegal but now it's becoming legal. But since it is still illegal, shouldn't that mean with that same logic that it should stay illegal?



But that's like saying it's OK for a man to kill another man because that man's not responsible for his own existence (technically, no one is; we all come from our mothers, and our mothers come from our grandmothers, and so on) and because that man doesn't meaningfully affect his own existence otherwise (maybe he's a hermit or something).

Why should there be a reason where it is right to abort a baby? Let's equate that to the world we live in: why should there be a reason where it is right to murder someone (murder, not kill; we're not talking about self-defense here :P).



But if we equate "abortion" to "murder" then it does become a moral issue, rather than just a functional one.

Well, say we lived in a society where it was OK to steal from the poor. Would it be wrong if I had a campaign to point out that it is immoral to steal from the poor?

My personal aim isn't to shame, it's to prevent. If someone has already had an abortion, nothing I can say will change that. I can pity them and be nice to them but I can't bring back that unborn baby either. However, if I can prevent someone from having an abortion, even if it's just one person, then I think all of this is not in vain.



I'm not even sure what I was meaning anymore. :P



So why does she have that right?



I don't have the slightest clue on how to use Mumble xD
Look mate I'm going to be honest with you.
I can't be stuffed to respond to all your points, but I'll say this: I disagree with most of your premises. The thing I disagree with most, however, is your argument that an abortion equals killing. I think that's what it boils down to.
I mean, I'm a Law student. I could argue the semantics all day but ultimately abortion is a right and in the spirit of equal opportunities I say that it should be available to all in any circumstances.
 
Oh, alright then. Yes, completely unprotected intercourse will obviously more than likely have consequences.

I wouldn't say that. The content of pre-cum has been found to contain varied or no actual content of sperm.

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/14647273.2010.520798
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12762415?dopt=Abstract
I hardly feel that 27 or 12 subjects is any sort of respectable study. No mention was made of the race, which is known to affect sperm production. No mention was made of health issues in the first study. And the first study actually disproves your statement, by stating that 37% of the subjects were able to produce motile sperm in their pre-ejaculate (which is actually much higher than I would expect).

Pulling out fails 18% of the time (typical-use, varies between 14-24%).
 
Look mate I'm going to be honest with you.
I can't be stuffed to respond to all your points, but I'll say this: I disagree with most of your premises. The thing I disagree with most, however, is your argument that an abortion equals killing. I think that's what it boils down to.
I mean, I'm a Law student. I could argue the semantics all day but ultimately abortion is a right and in the spirit of equal opportunities I say that it should be available to all in any circumstances.
I would say abortion is worse than killing. You're effectively giving more weight to the right to choice than the right to life.
 
I hardly feel that 27 or 12 subjects is any sort of respectable study. No mention was made of the race, which is known to affect sperm production. No mention was made of health issues in the first study. And the first study actually disproves your statement, by stating that 37% of the subjects were able to produce motile sperm in their pre-ejaculate (which is actually much higher than I would expect).

Pulling out fails 18% of the time (typical-use, varies between 14-24%).
To be honest, I could not find better studies. I don't believe I am against your side of the argument either, so I'm going to end my comments at that.
 
Then what solution do you hope to wish to establish, if any? Is it a matter of circumstances and how grave and dire the situation is that must require abortion? Is it necessary to abort the child, then, or have the mother and possible father endure with the child during this major crisis?

Why do I need to propose a solution? If we all stopped trying to tell each other how to live then the world would be a more pleasant place. Ultimately, whether a woman has an abortion or not it has zero effect on me so what right do I have to tell her what she should do? It's her body so it should be her choice. I just think it's a shame that so many children around the world are left to rot in orphanages, or placed into abusive foster homes.

Ok. I choose to cut off your testicles.

As opposed to allowing the parents to choose to remove a boy's foreskin for purely aesthetic reasons?

In any case, I hold that the unborn child can only be considered a viable human being when it can survive independently of the mother. Otherwise, where are you going to take it back to? The zygote? The ovum? The sperm? If so, then most women flush a potential human down the toilet every month. If the sperm then it's a lot more frequently than once a month.
 
It doesn't work that way
Hands off
Surely the right to life is more important than the right to be free of injury? Ergo, the right to my choice to cut off your balls is also greater than your right to keep them.

Yes, it works like that. I challenge you to prove me wrong.
Why do I need to propose a solution? If we all stopped trying to tell each other how to live then the world would be a more pleasant place. Ultimately, whether a woman has an abortion or not it has zero effect on me so what right do I have to tell her what she should do? It's her body so it should be her choice. I just think it's a shame that so many children around the world are left to rot in orphanages, or placed into abusive foster homes.



As opposed to allowing the parents to choose to remove a boy's foreskin for purely aesthetic reasons?

In any case, I hold that the unborn child can only be considered a viable human being when it can survive independently of the mother. Otherwise, where are you going to take it back to? The zygote? The ovum? The sperm? If so, then most women flush a potential human down the toilet every month. If the sperm then it's a lot more frequently than once a month.
I don't actually agree with forcibly removing the foreskin either. So let's leave that topic out of here.

I maintain that once an egg is fertilized, it has the potential to become a human, and is therefore protected under law. Exceptions, once again, where carrying the child to term will seriously harm or kill the mother, or (strongly discouraged) the child is a product of rape.
 
Surely the right to life is more important than the right to be free of injury? Ergo, the right to my choice to cut off your balls is also greater than your right to keep them.

Yes, it works like that. I challenge you to prove me wrong.
1. This doesn't make sense
2. That would be aggravated assault

If you mean here that my balls are symbolic of the capacity to create a child, then surely you're undermining your own arguement. I should have the opportunity to make kids. By golly, I should be spilling my seed more furitively than a Catholic used car salesman!

Gurw, don't be an idiot. I know you like to think you're an edgy yet effete high roller but saying shit like this is just dumb. It's not funny and it devalues the debate.

It's only an issue with the whole "right to life, fundamental human right" shit if you consider a fetus alive. Which in itself is another paradox. It's like saying to an atheist "You're going to hell." But atheists don't believe in hell so it's beside the point.

I'd like to see you go up to any woman and suggest that if they're OK with abortion at any time in their life - or just morally OK with the principle - that they should go and forfeit their uterus.

Nah but really. Let's chop off my balls. -_-
 
1. This doesn't make sense
2. That would be aggravated assault

If you mean here that my balls are symbolic of the capacity to create a child, then surely you're undermining your own arguement. I should have the opportunity to make kids. By golly, I should be spilling my seed more furitively than a Catholic used car salesman!

Gurw, don't be an idiot. I know you like to think you're an edgy yet effete high roller but saying shit like this is just dumb. It's not funny and it devalues the debate.

It's only an issue with the whole "right to life, fundamental human right" shit if you consider a fetus alive. Which in itself is another paradox. It's like saying to an atheist "You're going to hell." But atheists don't believe in hell so it's beside the point.

I'd like to see you go up to any woman and suggest that if they're OK with abortion at any time in their life - or just morally OK with the principle - that they should go and forfeit their uterus.

Nah but really. Let's chop off my balls. -_-
It makes perfect sense if you aren't a closed-minded piece of shit word-mangler. I mean, I know you're trying to become a lawyer...but I repeat myself.

I won't argue that a fetus may or may not be alive. That is not the point. It is the beginning of life, a human life. You are telling me, that you would destroy life just because some "lady" at a party couldn't keep her pants on?

It may be aggravated assault. But what you are condoning is murder, regardless of what your laws say.

I would, and have, bluntly, and rather rudely, suggested to women that they get their tubes tied if they're going to sleep with the entire hockey team -_-
 
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