When does an unborn organism become a person, if at all?

I think it's gotten me really far. In fact, just being who I am gets me far. Following rules and acting orthodox is stupid. Why would you want to do that? Anyway, I don't need someone tell me I'm wrong, when you're telling me what a woman should do with her body. It's pretty easy to tell someone to make such a radical decision when you're not in their shoes. Don't cry on me like Gurw I like a bit of challenge.

Look, I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their body regardless of my opinion on the matter. I don't care if you or anyone else disagree's with my opinion on the matter but there's no need to act like a douche to others because you disagree with their opinions on the matter.

For example, if you were at work and got into a disagreement with your employer and started insulting his capability to raise a child and other like minded insults they're not going to pat you on the back and call it a good day, rather you'll most likely be sacked.

There's a difference between being a "hippie" and not acting like a 3 year old child.
 
Okay, guys, really? 1. Holocaust, not a valid comparison to abortion. 2. "Because some lady at a party couldn't keep her pants on," don't even go there. 3. This whole abortion is only a butthurt for everyone because to women (pro-choice, I would say) feel like they are being told by men (sometimes women) that they can't have rights to their own body. It's their body, it's their decision. I'm not going to come up to you and tell you that you have to get your foreskin chopped off because it's "morally right" or whatever. You have the choice to do whatever the hell you want with your body, I have the choice to do whatever I want to do with mine, even if a fetus is involved.
I do agree that there should be a limit on abortions, maybe not being allowed to get one after so long, before second tri. for sure obviously.
But really? You have to know what it feels like when someone tells you that you don't have the right to do something, even though it doesn't affect them in any way, shape or form. It's not like the women getting the abortion is a stone-cold murderer, she isn't going to murder your children. It's her body, there isn't another actual alert human body involved.
This isn't even just about murder. If it was, I'd make my statement and leave. However, it's not. If you're pro-choice, you're pro-irresponsibility. You're going to honestly tell me that you want your child to grow up thinking that if s/he makes a mistake, that there's always an easy way out? That's not the way the world works. If I make a bloody mistake, I own up to it. I was raised that way, and I'd say I'm a damned sight better off for it than these ninny-whips who's parents "talk to the teacher" when they're failing a class. Seriously. If you fuck up, and get fucked up, then own your damned mistake, and take the consequences. I've found that the consequences are never as bad as you expect, and I would bet that 999 times out of 1000 that carrying a child to term is no different.

There are legal avenues to force the father to at the very least support the mother, if not help raise the child, so don't bring your wannabe-feminist arguments into this. Real feminists are snubbing their noses at you, just for the circumcision comment. There were plenty of relevant comparisons you could have chosen from (like, say, being forced to take hormones to produce breastmilk because the mother can't), and you chose one of the most irrelevant possible.

Less than 25%% of abortions are due to rape or health concerns. So by those numbers, over 75% are "convenience" abortions. As far as I'm concerned, all 3/4s of those getting abortions are irresponsible, spoiled, stupid lowlifes who will never learn to deal with their mistakes, and as such will remain losers for the rest of their lives. Rich, poor, doesn't matter, all losers.

Oh, hang on for a second here. Doesn't affect me in any way? Hey, maybe if people got into meaningful relationships instead of just whipping their cocks and pussies together repeatedly and with as many different partners as possible, they'd realize that a dedicated father will experience a very large portion of the discomfort the mother of their child is going through. They're called sympathy pains, and I've been dealing with them for three weeks now, so go back into your corner (OH GOD THE MOOD SWINGS WILL KILL ME).

Now, let's move away from this for a second. Legalized abortion reduces the number of pregnancies successfully carried to term in a given country, reducing the workforce and political weight of the country. In places like China or the Phillipines, I can understand the political and economic benefits of legalizing abortion (this doesn't change my stance of "keep it in your pants", but I can understand it). However, there is no economic or political benefit to legalizing abortion in a place like Canada, Australia, or the USA, where we have more than enough food, more than enough room, and (especially where I live, ALL the TFW's...) way more than enough work. Conveniently, if not all of the above is specifically true in your little town/Detroit, the borders are open and travelling is conveniently cheap and fast. So here, in developed countries, you have no excuse.

As for not murdering my children...have you checked the laws in your area to see whether or not the father is required to be present at the clinic/proof of police report filed for rape? I haven't found a single district that requires either. I've had two girlfriends abort and tell me later. That loss of potential life is the reason I make my stance known as early in the relationship as possible, and why I'm vocal here. It cut me to the bone to know that not only did someone remove the possibility, but they didn't even ask me about it. It hurts us men almost as much as it does women. We have feelings too, you know. When you choose to open yourselves to us, and we create something with you, it IS NO LONGER JUST YOUR BODY, and IT IS NO LONGER JUST YOUR CHOICE. So get off your goddamned high horse.
 
There are legal avenues to force the father to at the very least support the mother, if not help raise the child, so don't bring your wannabe-feminist arguments into this. Real feminists are snubbing their noses at you, just for the circumcision comment. There were plenty of relevant comparisons you could have chosen from (like, say, being forced to take hormones to produce breastmilk because the mother can't), and you chose one of the most irrelevant possible.
Never call me a wannabe-feminist ever again until I know that you know exactly what a feminist is. I'm sorry I don't agree with you, but please refrain from being rude to me.
 
Look, I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their body regardless of my opinion on the matter. I don't care if you or anyone else disagree's with my opinion on the matter but there's no need to act like a douche to others because you disagree with their opinions on the matter.

For example, if you were at work and got into a disagreement with your employer and started insulting his capability to raise a child and other like minded insults they're not going to pat you on the back and call it a good day, rather you'll most likely be sacked.

There's a difference between being a "hippie" and not acting like a 3 year old child.
If it gets to the point where I have to insult my employer, then I obviously don't want to work there. I will not ever no matter how hard it is to find a job shut up and be a yes man.
 
If it gets to the point where I have to insult my employer, then I obviously don't want to work there. I will not ever no matter how hard it is to find a job shut up and be a yes man.

You've got a fair point but my point still remains. Let's just drop this as I see it's going nowhere.
 
Never call me a wannabe-feminist ever again until I know that you know exactly what a feminist is. I'm sorry I don't agree with you, but please refrain from being rude to me.
The burden of proof lies with the person making the positive claim. Prove you are worthy of the title of Feminist, and I'll happily retract my statement, and apologize. Until then, what you've demonstrated in this thread thus far shows me you don't understand that when two people create something together, they BOTH get a say in the destiny of that creation, and thus, you do not understand the true concept of equal.
 
Guys, please calm down.

Less than 25%% of abortions are due to rape or health concerns. So by those numbers, over 75% are "convenience" abortions. As far as I'm concerned, all 3/4s of those getting abortions are irresponsible, spoiled, stupid lowlifes who will never learn to deal with their mistakes, and as such will remain losers for the rest of their lives. Rich, poor, doesn't matter, all losers.

Actually, the statistics are more in your favor...

Lawrence B. Finer et al., 113-14. This survey shows women have abortions for the following reasons:

25% "not ready for a(nother) child/timing is wrong"
23% "can't afford a baby now"
19% "have completed my childbearing/have other people depending on me/children are grown"
8% "don't want to be a single mother/am having relationship problems"
7% "don't feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child/feel too young"
6% "other" (this category had no further explanation)
4% "would interfere with education or career plans"
4% "physical problem with my health"
3% "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus"
-0.5% "husband or partner wants me to have an abortion"
-0.5% "parents want me to have an abortion"
-0.5% "don't want people to know I had sex or got pregnant"
-0.5% "was a victim of rape"


Over 92% of abortions in America are purely elective -- done on healthy women (and not raped) to end the lives of healthy children.
 
EDITing in a reply before I go:
Guys, please calm down.



Actually, the statistics are more in your favor...

Lawrence B. Finer et al., 113-14. This survey shows women have abortions for the following reasons:

25% "not ready for a(nother) child/timing is wrong"
23% "can't afford a baby now"
19% "have completed my childbearing/have other people depending on me/children are grown"
8% "don't want to be a single mother/am having relationship problems"
7% "don't feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child/feel too young"
6% "other" (this category had no further explanation)
4% "would interfere with education or career plans"
4% "physical problem with my health"
3% "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus"
-0.5% "husband or partner wants me to have an abortion"
-0.5% "parents want me to have an abortion"
-0.5% "don't want people to know I had sex or got pregnant"
-0.5% "was a victim of rape"


Over 92% of abortions in America are purely elective -- done on healthy women (and not raped) to end the lives of healthy children.
My statistics involved more than the USA, since this is not simply an American topic. Worldwide, it averages out to around 16-23%

/edit

I hereby remove myself from further debate, as it has become abundantly clear to me that my only opponents are incapable of backing up their statements with either real experience or proven facts, and have subsequently resorted to name-calling, unrelated relations, and stooping to the level of kindergartners.

Either way, I have made my closing statements to all two of you who I oppose, and I bid you farewell.

*unwatches thread*
 
EDITing in a reply before I go:

My statistics involved more than the USA, since this is not simply an American topic. Worldwide, it averages out to around 16-23%

/edit

k, it would be nice to see a reference though :P

Also, thought this was an interesting statistic:

"Nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, and nearly all unsafe abortions occur in developing countries. In the developing world, 56% of all abortions are unsafe, compared with 6% in the developed world.[1]"

"Each year 47,000 women die as a result of unsafe abortion, accounting for 13% of all maternal deaths worldwide. Almost all of these deaths occur in developing countries.[1]"

reference: Sedgh G et al., Induced abortion: incidence and trends worldwide from 1995 to 2008, Lancet, 2012, 379(9816):625–632 .

People who are pro-choice always seem to mention:

"What about the medical complications that can come from birth?"

And never seem to mention all the deaths that occur because of abortion, not to mention the other medical problems such as hemorrhage, infection, sterility, and PAS (post-abortion syndrome). Women who have abortions also often experience "severe" or "intense" pain during the procedure (not to mention the babies who have developed enough to feel pain themselves).




I think the reason that abortion is such a touchy subject for people is because...

...if they have have had an abortion or convinced someone to get an abortion, they don't want to feel in the wrong

...if they are pro-life, they don't want unborn babies to die

That's why it can become a very emotionally charged issue (sorry if these reasons sounds biased; I don't know how else to word them)

EDIT: Double post, my bad
 
This isn't even just about murder. If it was, I'd make my statement and leave. However, it's not. If you're pro-choice, you're pro-irresponsibility. You're going to honestly tell me that you want your child to grow up thinking that if s/he makes a mistake, that there's always an easy way out? That's not the way the world works. If I make a bloody mistake, I own up to it. I was raised that way, and I'd say I'm a damned sight better off for it than these ninny-whips who's parents "talk to the teacher" when they're failing a class. Seriously. If you fuck up, and get fucked up, then own your damned mistake, and take the consequences. I've found that the consequences are never as bad as you expect, and I would bet that 999 times out of 1000 that carrying a child to term is no different.

There are legal avenues to force the father to at the very least support the mother, if not help raise the child, so don't bring your wannabe-feminist arguments into this. Real feminists are snubbing their noses at you, just for the circumcision comment. There were plenty of relevant comparisons you could have chosen from (like, say, being forced to take hormones to produce breastmilk because the mother can't), and you chose one of the most irrelevant possible.

Less than 25%% of abortions are due to rape or health concerns. So by those numbers, over 75% are "convenience" abortions. As far as I'm concerned, all 3/4s of those getting abortions are irresponsible, spoiled, stupid lowlifes who will never learn to deal with their mistakes, and as such will remain losers for the rest of their lives. Rich, poor, doesn't matter, all losers.

Oh, hang on for a second here. Doesn't affect me in any way? Hey, maybe if people got into meaningful relationships instead of just whipping their cocks and pussies together repeatedly and with as many different partners as possible, they'd realize that a dedicated father will experience a very large portion of the discomfort the mother of their child is going through. They're called sympathy pains, and I've been dealing with them for three weeks now, so go back into your corner (OH GOD THE MOOD SWINGS WILL KILL ME).

Now, let's move away from this for a second. Legalized abortion reduces the number of pregnancies successfully carried to term in a given country, reducing the workforce and political weight of the country. In places like China or the Phillipines, I can understand the political and economic benefits of legalizing abortion (this doesn't change my stance of "keep it in your pants", but I can understand it). However, there is no economic or political benefit to legalizing abortion in a place like Canada, Australia, or the USA, where we have more than enough food, more than enough room, and (especially where I live, ALL the TFW's...) way more than enough work. Conveniently, if not all of the above is specifically true in your little town/Detroit, the borders are open and travelling is conveniently cheap and fast. So here, in developed countries, you have no excuse.

As for not murdering my children...have you checked the laws in your area to see whether or not the father is required to be present at the clinic/proof of police report filed for rape? I haven't found a single district that requires either. I've had two girlfriends abort and tell me later. That loss of potential life is the reason I make my stance known as early in the relationship as possible, and why I'm vocal here. It cut me to the bone to know that not only did someone remove the possibility, but they didn't even ask me about it. It hurts us men almost as much as it does women. We have feelings too, you know. When you choose to open yourselves to us, and we create something with you, it IS NO LONGER JUST YOUR BODY, and IT IS NO LONGER JUST YOUR CHOICE. So get off your goddamned high horse.
I believe in always trying to fix your mistakes, as long as you're not a burden to other people/it's going to affect another person.

There's no good reason that I can think of not to use white out if you make a mistake, so to speak. If you're an irresponsible person, then that doesn't mean you should go out of your way to make your life difficult. If there are ways provided to clear up the mistake you made, then do it. You may see this as cowardly or something, but if you're burdening no one else, just take the easy way out, unless it's going to come back to haunt you later.
Eventually if you keep doing this you're going to reach a mistake you can't fix, then that'll be your problem then.

I guess that's just my view.
 
Or the fourth option, and usually the more common one: Keep, love, and raise the child.
I still don't see how abortion in the case of rape is the most humane thing to do.

First, we need to think about it logically. So it seems you have established that abortion is wrong in every case except rape. So why isn't it wrong? Why should rape have a "special pleading" case?

Second, we need to consider the actual facts of the correlation between abortions and rape victims. Look at this study:

"...it is commonly assumed that rape victims who become pregnant would naturally want abortions. But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions. This figure is remarkably similar to the 73 percent birth rate found in our sample of 164 pregnant rape victims. This one finding alone should cause people to pause and reflect on the presumption that abortion is wanted or even best for sexual assault victims."

- reference: Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.

Again, as I'd stated.
Pixiel said:
A law saying that abortion is allowed if the pregnancy is a result of rape has nothing to do with the women who feel they can handle that kind of thing and love the baby. It only affects the women who cannot.


This is the exact reason I've not been posting here even though I've wanted to respond to certain people I majorly disagree with.

This sort of topic just breeds incivility.
This is why I typically stay away from ALL of Serenity's threads, but meh.
 
This is why I typically stay away from ALL of Serenity's threads, but meh.
Ouch.

Personally, I love Serenity's threads. There's nothing I love more than civil arguments. (And if people begin to flame, I get to stay civil, look down on them, and feel kinda high and mighty, oh boy!"
 
Murder isn't self-defense. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Killing just means to cause death, which can include murder and self-defense.


Yet there is a limit to as far as self defense can go, before it is counted as murder.

And the vise versa is also true.
 
A law saying that abortion is allowed if the pregnancy is a result of rape has nothing to do with the women who feel they can handle that kind of thing and love the baby. It only affects the women who cannot.

But if we're going with majority rules in the cases of actual rape victims, abortion in the case of rape should be illegal.

This is why I typically stay away from ALL of Serenity's threads, but meh.

Meowr! *hisses* :P

Seriously though, aren't discussions like these far more thought-provoking than image threads and trying to find YouTube crap? :biggrin:

Ouch.

Personally, I love Serenity's threads. There's nothing I love more than civil arguments. (And if people begin to flame, I get to stay civil, look down on them, and feel kinda high and mighty, oh boy!"

Aww thank you *hands giant chocolate chip cookie*

Yet there is a limit to as far as self defense can go, before it is counted as murder.

And the vise versa is also true.

True, but I'm trying to make the distinction that abortion is murder, not self-defense.
 
But if we're going with majority rules in the cases of actual rape victims, abortion in the case of rape should be illegal.
Majority rules? Why is this a "majority rules" situation?

I'm going to say one thing, I don't think anything I've said is "right" or "wrong". Whatever I've said in here is purely my opinion. If you don't agree, you don't have to. I'm not in government, hell, I'm not even registered to vote. I most likely will NEVER be registered to vote. So none of this is my say or opinion/belief over anyone else's. A woman can do what she wants with her body for whatever reason she wants. Every example I have given is purely an 'If I were in the position of...' point of view.

Edit: Yes, I know the "A woman can do what she wants with her body for whatever reason she wants." is exactly what this is all about, the fact that it's not just the woman's body, but I am not in any position to tell someone they can't.
 
Majority rules? Why is this a "majority rules" situation?

Well, that's generally how laws work. The majority of people consider a man murdering another man as wrong, so it's against the law. The majority of people consider robbing a bank as wrong, so it's against the law. Laws exist to promote the welfare of the people and order. Abortion does not promote the welfare of the mothers (psychological trauma, deaths, medical problems), nor does it promote the welfare of the babies, of course.

I'm going to say one thing, I don't think anything I've said is "right" or "wrong". Whatever I've said in here is purely my opinion. If you don't agree, you don't have to. I'm not in government, hell, I'm not even registered to vote. I most likely will NEVER be registered to vote. So none of this is my say or opinion/belief over anyone else's. A woman can do what she wants with her body for whatever reason she wants. Every example I have given is purely an 'If I were in the position of...' point of view.

I understand it's your opinion, as is mine an opinion.

A woman can do what she wants with her body for whatever reason she wants.

Except we're talking about the baby's body as well, not just the mother's
 
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