When does an unborn organism become a person, if at all?

[Serenity595]

Look mate I'm going to be honest with you.
I can't be stuffed to respond to all your points, but I'll say this: I disagree with most of your premises. The thing I disagree with most, however, is your argument that an abortion equals killing. I think that's what it boils down to.
I mean, I'm a Law student. I could argue the semantics all day but ultimately abortion is a right and in the spirit of equal opportunities I say that it should be available to all in any circumstances.

I'll just ask you two short questions then to condense things

Why isn't abortion killing?
Why is abortion a right?

If we all stopped trying to tell each other how to live then the world would be a more pleasant place.

So if you came at me with a gun I shouldn't tell you whether or not to shoot me? I shouldn't tell you how to live, right?

Ultimately, whether a woman has an abortion or not it has zero effect on me so what right do I have to tell her what she should do?

So because sex slavery has zero effect on you, you have no right to tell people who buy sex slaves what they should do?

It's her body so it should be her choice.

So you're saying the baby isn't an individual organism?

I just think it's a shame that so many children around the world are left to rot in orphanages, or placed into abusive foster homes.

I also think it's a shame that so many unborn children are killed every day.

Did you know that 125,000 unborn children are killed worldwide each day?

Did you also know that about 11 million people died in the Holocaust? Did you know that the yearly death toll of unborn babies yearly is nearly 4 to 5 times that amount?

In any case, I hold that the unborn child can only be considered a viable human being when it can survive independently of the mother. Otherwise, where are you going to take it back to? The zygote? The ovum? The sperm? If so, then most women flush a potential human down the toilet every month. If the sperm then it's a lot more frequently than once a month.

So then all babies who are born are not viable human beings because they require the mother after birth. Also, all disabled people or those who are on life support are also not viable human beings according to that statement.

I take it back to the moment a baby is conceived. An unfertilized egg does not count as a human being, nor does sperm.

 

[Kris]

I'll just ask you two short questions then to condense things

Why isn't abortion killing?
Why is abortion a right?



So if you came at me with a gun I shouldn't tell you whether or not to shoot me? I shouldn't tell you how to live, right?



So because sex slavery has zero effect on you, you have no right to tell people who buy sex slaves what they should do?



So you're saying the baby isn't an individual organism?



I also think it's a shame that so many unborn children are killed every day.

Did you know that 125,000 unborn children are killed worldwide each day?

Did you also know that about 11 million people died in the Holocaust? Did you know that the yearly death toll of unborn babies yearly is nearly 4 to 5 times that amount?



So then all babies who are born are not viable human beings because they require the mother after birth. Also, all disabled people or those who are on life support are also not viable human beings according to that statement.

I take it back to the moment a baby is conceived. An unfertilized egg does not count as a human being, nor does sperm.

I take it to birth itself.

Miscarriages don't receive gravestones, or a birth certificate. Or any of the rights that we (generally) have as humans. I believe a fetus becomes a person at birth.

 

[Serenity595]

So you're saying that before a human baby is born, it is not of the human species?

 

[Mightythedj23]

For me, after reading all of the everything posted in here, i just have to say this honestly is the only argument/debate that i've ever been in where my side is not clear cut.


I mean, it legitly depends on the situation; i'm not saying i support abortion, as i'm a firm believer every life is worth living/everyone deserves a chance, until they prove me otherwise.


but at the same time, in the cases of rape, sexual assault, etc.. it's a different story. I know i can never speak for the victims of such incidents, but i could imagine that some would not want the baby, as it would be a constant reminder of the horrible actions done to them.


But again, a life is a life right? I was told a few years back when i was first learning about abortion, that there apparently is (or was) a time limit. If the fetus is 3 months old or more, the abortion cannot be done. I have no idea how true that is, Whether it is or not, i'm sure someone will reply to this and tell me. Getting back to what i was saying, 3 months? seems to me that's when they consider it to be a living being. Yet, common knowledge of the body shows that the baby's body (the formation of the internal organs, veins/artery's and such) are fully formed only after a few weeks after the parents/people/whatever the case may be, get it on. The rest of the gestation period is the baby's body growing.


So, to me, i think an organism becomes a person is when it is conceived, when it's body is developed, and i think abortion isn't something i agree with, but i do at the same time.

TL; DR a Life is a life, regardless. I can force someone to do what i tell them, so, there's that.

 

[Beaubonic]

So then all babies who are born are not viable human beings because they require the mother after birth. Also, all disabled people or those who are on life support are also not viable human beings according to that statement

I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure he meant able to survive outside the womb.

Also, life support patients: They have a right to request to be held on life support, or have their plug pulled before things go down the shitter. If they didn't, I feel that if there is no chance of recovering, pull the plug... However, this is for a different conversation.

 

[Beaubonic]

I take it to birth itself.

Miscarriages don't receive gravestones, or a birth certificate. Or any of the rights that we (generally) have as humans. I believe a fetus becomes a person at birth.

You're right, they don't. Maybe they should! I feel terrible every day about the loss of my unborn children, and nobody ever recognizes that they existed. They were a part of me, they were growing human beings. They died without my doing in any and all matters of speaking. They died before they could breathe on their own, they died before they could do anything on their own. But, they were my children. I still tell myself Happy Mother's Day even when nobody else will recognize it. My children weren't murdered, they weren't aborted, but they died regardless. Kind of like SIDs, but before they could be considered babies to most people. I felt these living beings inside of me. One even made it to the point where it could start moving a little. How is that not alive?

 

[Serenity595]

but at the same time, in the cases of rape, sexual assault, etc.. it's a different story. I know i can never speak for the victims of such incidents, but i could imagine that some would not want the baby, as it would be a constant reminder of the horrible actions done to them.

But that's like saying murder is right under certain circumstances.

Also, I've heard that most women find keeping the baby to be a good thing cause it helps them overpower the trauma that the rape caused. Killing the baby doesn't fix anything. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure he meant able to survive outside the womb.

Also, life support patients: They have a right to request to be held on life support, or have their plug pulled before things go down the shitter. If they didn't, I feel that if there is no chance of recovering, pull the plug... However, this is for a different conversation.

But how does living outside the womb suddenly make someone a person a person? It's like if we both saw a pink elephant. You can say that it's not a pink elephant according to your beliefs, and I could say it is a pink elephant according to my beliefs, but the fact doesn't change that it is indeed a pink elephant. I'm not saying you belief this way, I'm just referring to the other guy's statement.

Here's a random thought: if women who are abortionists say it's because they want women to have the right to choose, shouldn't that also apply to unborn women? If we're talking about equality here, they should.

 

[Beaubonic]

But that's like saying murder is right under certain circumstances.

Also, I've heard that most women find keeping the baby to be a good thing cause it helps them overpower the trauma that the rape caused. Killing the baby doesn't fix anything. Two wrongs don't make a right..

You're right, two wrongs don't make a right. However, a lot of women who have been impregnated as a result of rape are already traumatized by the act, now their body has to endure 9 months with a "demon seed" inside of them, and then give birth to a burden and constant reminder of what happened. In which case usually results in one or more of three things. Keep and abuse the child, drop it off either at some sort of shelter or in a dumpster, and/or kill themselves/the baby. Abortion in a case of rape is, sometimes, the most humane thing that would come out of that kind of pregnancy.

A law saying that abortion is allowed if the pregnancy is a result of rape has nothing to do with the women who feel they can handle that kind of thing and love the baby. It only affects the women who cannot.

 

[xHallucinationx]

And my girlfriend is currently pregnant with our first child. What's your point?

You would condemn a child to death before it truly lives just because the parents are irresponsible? You would think to predict whether or not a child will be worth keeping based on the accomplishments or lack thereof of its parents? If you find yourself incapable of understanding that we are not our parents, that we choose our own paths in life, then perhaps you should go have your balls snipped so you don't reproduce.

Now, allow me to correct your "related statements" so that they actually relate to my statement.

If you drink alcohol, expect to get drunk. Don't want to get drunk? Don't drink alcohol.
If you drive a car, expect to get places sooner than by walking. Don't want to get places sooner than by walking? Don't drive a car.
If you have electricity, expect to be able to power your electrical devices. Don't want to power your electrical devices? Don't purchase electricity.
If you eat red meat, expect to calm your hunger pangs. Don't want to stop your stomach from growling? Don't eat.
If you use drugs, expect to fry your brain. Don't want a fried brain? Don't do drugs. (No change, since drugs are pretty much designed to destroy your brain.)
If you work a manual labor job, expect to make the allotted amount of money you agreed to when starting the job, while simultaneously completing the tasks expected by your employer. Don't want money? Don't get a job.

Sex has a purpose. That purpose is to make babies. Just because there are other effects, does not mean you can ignore that original purpose. In the same way, drinking alcohol has the purpose of getting you drunk - regardless of what other effects it has or what precautions you take, there is a solid chance you will get drunk, since that is the original purpose of drinking alcohol.

Do you understand the changes I made? If not, here you go: I changed them to line up with their original and intended purpose. Yeah, sex is good for other things (bringing a couple closer together, introducing extreme amounts of pleasurable chemicals and hormones into the body, relieving stress, burning calories, etc etc etc), but they are not what it was designed for...which is creating offspring.

We don't live in the stone ages. If you believe sex is only for reproduction then your head is extremely fucked from all that poison you drink.

 

[Unismurfsity]

Okay, guys, really? 1. Holocaust, not a valid comparison to abortion. 2. "Because some lady at a party couldn't keep her pants on," don't even go there. 3. This whole abortion is only a butthurt for everyone because to women (pro-choice, I would say) feel like they are being told by men (sometimes women) that they can't have rights to their own body. It's their body, it's their decision. I'm not going to come up to you and tell you that you have to get your foreskin chopped off because it's "morally right" or whatever. You have the choice to do whatever the hell you want with your body, I have the choice to do whatever I want to do with mine, even if a fetus is involved.
I do agree that there should be a limit on abortions, maybe not being allowed to get one after so long, before second tri. for sure obviously.
But really? You have to know what it feels like when someone tells you that you don't have the right to do something, even though it doesn't affect them in any way, shape or form. It's not like the women getting the abortion is a stone-cold murderer, she isn't going to murder your children. It's her body, there isn't another actual alert human body involved.

-- Edit: I know the majority of you disagree with me on the subject, as I disagree with some. But I do realize that you're all entitled to your beliefs and opinions as I am mine, please don't get super pissed with me XD

 

[TheGurw]

You're right, two wrongs don't make a right. However, a lot of women who have been impregnated as a result of rape are already traumatized by the act, now their body has to endure 9 months with a "demon seed" inside of them, and then give birth to a burden and constant reminder of what happened. In which case usually results in one or more of three things. Keep and abuse the child, drop it off either at some sort of shelter or in a dumpster, and/or kill themselves/the baby. Abortion in a case of rape is, sometimes, the most humane thing that would come out of that kind of pregnancy.

A law saying that abortion is allowed if the pregnancy is a result of rape has nothing to do with the women who feel they can handle that kind of thing and love the baby. It only affects the women who cannot.

Or the fourth option, and usually the more common one: Keep, love, and raise the child.

We don't live in the stone ages. If you believe sex is only for reproduction then your head is extremely fucked from all that poison you drink.

You aren't even reading my posts, are you?

I specifically said ORIGINAL, TRUE, INTENDED, PRIMARY, etc etc etc. I also agreed that yes, there are other reasons to have sex. However, you CANNOT deny that sex is for making babies, and that every single other benefit of sex is an evolved benefit designed to make us have more sex and make more babies (or if you happen to be religious, then <insert deity name(s) here> gave us those benefits so we would "be fruitful and multiply, and enjoy the process").

I'm not living in the Stone Age, you just either can't read or can't pull your head out of your own ass. Good lord, if you honestly believe that you can judge me by the amount of alcohol you think I drink (which I guarantee is far less than what you think, considering you don't even know me), then you really do deserve to never experience the wonderful miracle of creating a child. I wouldn't want your ignorant ass passing on any traits - and anyone who doesn't agree that judging someone based on rumors and hearsay is complete and utter bullshit, I will happily send along with him to get sterilized.

I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[xHallucinationx]

Or the fourth option, and usually the more common one: Keep, love, and raise the child.

You aren't even reading my posts, are you?

I specifically said ORIGINAL, TRUE, INTENDED, PRIMARY, etc etc etc. I also agreed that yes, there are other reasons to have sex. However, you CANNOT deny that sex is for making babies, and that every single other benefit of sex is an evolved benefit designed to make us have more sex and make more babies (or if you happen to be religious, then <insert deity name(s) here> gave us those benefits so we would "be fruitful and multiply, and enjoy the process").

I'm not living in the Stone Age, you just either can't read or can't pull your head out of your own ass. Good lord, if you honestly believe that you can judge me by the amount of alcohol you think I drink (which I guarantee is far less than what you think, considering you don't even know me), then you really do deserve to never experience the wonderful miracle of creating a child. I wouldn't want your ignorant ass passing on any traits - and anyone who doesn't agree that judging someone based on rumors and hearsay is complete and utter bullshit, I will happily send along with him to get sterilized.

I have nothing more to say to you.

Considering every time you logged into the server you could not run you showed up drunk, you drink exactly as much as I think. I'm glad you feel as strongly as you do that I should not reproduce. Hell, if your child picks up anything from you it will become a dumb drunk who bitches at people on forums. I have to smack you with the blunt truth that if you think abortion should be outlawed, you are most likely a retarded republican. I'm glad that you're a drunk. You're killing yourself with poison so cancer like you don't infest the planet. Say nothing more you authoritarian scum.

 

[Serenity595]

You're right, two wrongs don't make a right. However, a lot of women who have been impregnated as a result of rape are already traumatized by the act, now their body has to endure 9 months with a "demon seed" inside of them, and then give birth to a burden and constant reminder of what happened. In which case usually results in one or more of three things. Keep and abuse the child, drop it off either at some sort of shelter or in a dumpster, and/or kill themselves/the baby. Abortion in a case of rape is, sometimes, the most humane thing that would come out of that kind of pregnancy.

A law saying that abortion is allowed if the pregnancy is a result of rape has nothing to do with the women who feel they can handle that kind of thing and love the baby. It only affects the women who cannot.

I still don't see how abortion in the case of rape is the most humane thing to do.

First, we need to think about it logically. So it seems you have established that abortion is wrong in every case except rape. So why isn't it wrong? Why should rape have a "special pleading" case?

Second, we need to consider the actual facts of the correlation between abortions and rape victims. Look at this study:

"...it is commonly assumed that rape victims who become pregnant would naturally want abortions. But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions. This figure is remarkably similar to the 73 percent birth rate found in our sample of 164 pregnant rape victims. This one finding alone should cause people to pause and reflect on the presumption that abortion is wanted or even best for sexual assault victims."

- reference: Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.

We don't live in the stone ages. If you believe sex is only for reproduction then your head is extremely fucked from all that poison you drink.

I think he meant that someone can't possibly have sex without knowing it is for reproduction (keep in mind I'm talking about sexual intercourse between a male and a female). People may use it for other uses, but its core function remains the same. All other benefits that come from it are functionally secondary.

EDIT: Gurw beat me to it lol

 

[Skryter]

Ok guys, I know It's not my place but can we please stop insulting eachother and act in a civil fashion. I thought we were having an intellectual debate, not a fight between toddlers

Considering every time you logged into the server you could not run you showed up drunk, you drink exactly as much as I think. I'm glad you feel as strongly as you do that I should not reproduce. Hell, if your child picks up anything from you it will become a dumb drunk who bitches at people on forums. I have to smack you with the blunt truth that if you think abortion should be outlawed, you are most likely a retarded republican. I'm glad that you're a drunk. You're killing yourself with poison so cancer like you don't infest the planet. Say nothing more you authoritarian scum.

Don't you think shit like the above is a tad bit excessive? Seriously, grow the fuck up guys and set aside the petty arguments for private conventions.

 

[xHallucinationx]

not a fight between toddlers.

Using insults to tell people to stop insulting eachother.

 

[Patchouli]

Ok guys, I know It's not my place but can we please stop insulting eachother and act in a civil fashion. I thought we were having an intellectual debate, not a fight between toddlers.

This is the exact reason I've not been posting here even though I've wanted to respond to certain people I majorly disagree with.

This sort of topic just breeds incivility.

 

[Skryter]

Using insults to tell people to stop insulting eachother.

It's a fair comparison to how some people in this thread have been behaving, I'm not going to pretend certain people in this thread are acting in a mature fashion.

 

[xHallucinationx]

It's a fair comparison to how some people in this thread have been behaving, I'm not going to pretend certain people in this thread are acting in a mature fashion.

I actually believe it's immature to act like a hippie and insist on peace and act in a calm fashion. There's a reason they only lasted 10 years.

 

[Skryter]

I actually believe it's immature to act like a hippie and insist on peace and act in a calm fashion. There's a reason they only lasted 10 years.

No, it's not immature because pointlessly insulting people isn't going to get you anywhere not only here but in real life as well. It's a fucking joke that a 15 year old of all people should be telling for the most part Adults to act in a mature fashion.

 

[xHallucinationx]

No, it's not immature because pointlessly insulting people isn't going to get you anywhere not only here but in real life as well. It's a fucking joke that a 15 year old of all people should be telling for the most part Adults to act in a mature fashion.

I think it's gotten me really far. In fact, just being who I am gets me far. Following rules and acting orthodox is stupid. Why would you want to do that? Anyway, I don't need someone tell me I'm wrong, when you're telling me what a woman should do with her body. It's pretty easy to tell someone to make such a radical decision when you're not in their shoes. Don't cry on me like Gurw I like a bit of challenge.