TheGurw
Well-Known Member
But say they go with Dragon. In this case, the second they send out Charizard, the challenger knows immediately that that was their choice of Mega and can strategize accordingly.
The Official T9K Pokemon League
- Thread starter ChibaMasato
- Start date
moondoggy23
Well-Known Member
This goes back to part of my argument, I think. Me am not gud with werds sumtimes. Let's use Ampharos as the example again:
I'm the dragon leader. Mega Ampharos is electric/dragon. I'm battling someone and I throw out Ampharos. I would HAVE to mega him right away? I can't use the mega-evo as part of the battle strategy and mega when needed? Would the same principle apply to the challenger?
Zennai
Well-Known Member
...which would give them an advantage for that one turn before the Charizard Megas? I fail to see the point.
moondoggy23
Well-Known Member
Maybe we need to have some mock battles to see how this plays out.
I think what Gurw and I are getting at is that mega-evos are a strategic part of battling. Like what item/berry your 'mon should hold, deciding whether to use it as a mega-evo is equally important, because it can throw off your opponents tactics long enough for you to turn the tables. Having the rule set so the mega has to match the type throws the favor to the challenger, even if for a turn. I would be reluctant to use a mega-evo as a leader and would rather use another strategy that doesn't give away my hand until I'm ready to play it.
TheGurw
Well-Known Member
One turn is enough to decide at least 8/10 battles in the competitive field. Every decent player knows it only takes one turn to change the tide of a battle, and that one turn is the turn where your opponent is given the opportunity to see your hand. I feel that the pre-Mega should be type-matched, not the Mega. Simple as that.
ConceitedCupcake
Well-Known Member
Only, there's one big hole in that idea. In XY, whenever you Battle someone you get a roster preview right before you start. Meaning when we go to fight, I will see all of your Pokemon before you even send them out. And you will see mine.
Using a Rock team and I see you have an Aerodactyl? Congrats, I now know you're going to use a Stealth Rocks lead and which one your Mega is. I'll just send out a Pokemon with Rapid Spin first and blow away your rocks after I KO you. There goes your lead.
Likewise you'll see my team and, depending on how experienced you are, will notice that I'm going to be using a Rain Dance team. And now you can start planning against that, before the battle even starts.
There is no such thing as the "element of surprise" anymore, not when it comes to rosters. That "1 turn" that your opponent gained when they saw that you were going to use Mega Charizard X on a Dragon team? You gained it back when you saw that they were going to use Mega Gyarados on their Dark team.
And besides, it's not like once you've lost an edge in the match that you've lost the whole battle. You can always have the opportunity to gain that edge back, and even turn it around.
What I'm trying to get at with that, is that sometimes 1 turn is all it takes. But sometimes, it takes more than 1 good turn to win. So if you lose, or if you win, don't attribute it to a childish reason like "They knew what I was using before I could use it! I didn't have a chance!" You enter the battle on equal playing fields. Your choices are what decides whether you win or lose. Your Pokemon, and most importantly HOW YOU USE THEM, are what decides if you win or lose.
What doesn't decide whether you win or lose? Your opponent realizing that you're using a Mega Ampharos because you're using a Dragon team. That's just another part of the battle. You knew the risks going in, you have only yourself to account for if someone else is better at thinking ahead than you are.
Simple as that.
And I'll say this one more time: Using a Mega is nothing more than an option. If using Mega Ampharos or Mega Charizard X seems too risky for you, that's fine, there are other Megas, or even Legendaries, at your disposal. But if the other person vying for Dragon type wants to use Mega Ampharos because they want a good electric type? That's their choice, and they're entitled to it. Just because you won't take that option doesn't mean that everyone else shouldn't be able to.
ChibaMasato
Well-Known Member
FUCKING THIS. THANK YOU.
This is EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make the entire time. They are options, not forced. You can have a complete matching Mega Evo, a partial match (Mega Evo matches, pre doesn't), a legendary OR neither. You don't have to use certain pokemon if you don't want to. It's entirely your choice. As long as the members abide by the Single Type clause, you can do anything you'd like. Want to be the Normal type trainer and use nothing but Bidoofs? Do it! It's your team! Water type team based around a maximum damage flailing Magikarp? Go nuts! Passive damage only poison team? Work it like a champ!
thee_pro
Well-Known Member
Normal type leader should name his/her team "The Baton Passing Bastards"FUCKING THIS. THANK YOU.
This is EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make the entire time. They are options, not forced. You can have a complete matching Mega Evo, a partial match (Mega Evo matches, pre doesn't), a legendary OR neither. You don't have to use certain pokemon if you don't want to. It's entirely your choice. As long as the members abide by the Single Type clause, you can do anything you'd like. Want to be the Normal type trainer and use nothing but Bidoofs? Do it! It's your team! Water type team based around a maximum damage flailing Magikarp? Go nuts! Passive damage only poison team? Work it like a champ!
TheGurw
Well-Known Member
And MY point is that you have removed the possibility of having a Mega Charizard X on a Flying-type team, even though the pre-mega matches.FUCKING THIS. THANK YOU.
This is EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make the entire time. They are options, not forced. You can have a complete matching Mega Evo, a partial match (Mega Evo matches, pre doesn't), a legendary OR neither. You don't have to use certain pokemon if you don't want to. It's entirely your choice. As long as the members abide by the Single Type clause, you can do anything you'd like. Want to be the Normal type trainer and use nothing but Bidoofs? Do it! It's your team! Water type team based around a maximum damage flailing Magikarp? Go nuts! Passive damage only poison team? Work it like a champ!
Fuck this, I'm not bothering arguing. Count me out.
ChibaMasato
Well-Known Member
That's the point. Thee pro's already stated the bit about 'trump card' pokemon, who don't have the same type, but are themed accordingly, such as the event Pikachus who know Fly and Surf for a flying or water team. I'm not allowing them simply because every type has a way of covering its weaknesses. This is to force people to think outside the box, and come up with strategies no one has really encountered before. It's to have them be creative with the limited hand they've chosen for themselves.
moondoggy23
Well-Known Member
I still want in on this league, I think it's awesome we're finally moving forward with it. I'm making this statement and then I'm done saying anything about megas.
Earlier, you stated limiting megas to pre-mega form would limit a leaders choice in 'mon so that's why you stated the mega form would have to meet the single type rule, not the pre-mega form. Now, you're saying the opposite. Just who are you limiting the choice for? The leader, or the challenger? As a challenger I can have a party of six 'min of my choice, regardless of type. I also have the option of using one legendary (not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent) or one mega. The same applies to the gym leader, but they have to stick to their type, with the caveat that the mega form must be the same type as the rest of the party, regardless of its pre-mega type. You just said that each type has ways of covering for its weaknesses, so it just seems a bit convoluted to me that I would be unable to use mega gyarados if I'm the flying leader because it is water/dark when mega'd. Anyways, I'm stepping off the issue now. I will respect your decision.
Could I use an entire team of the same Pokemon (ex. All Dragonite)?
Kris
Well-Known Member
Lance would be pleased with you, young doggy.
thee_pro
Well-Known Member
If Zennai has anything to say about this matter, he would say no you can't. It breaks one of "Smogon's rules".
Smogon Website said:
But the way it is right now Chiba said that it is okay.
Don't let Zen ruin this with his Smogon crap. Please.
Zennai
Well-Known Member
I only wish to see Smogon uber-tiers with BSTs 600 and over banned. I am all for having gimmick teams, one-species or otherwise, I just do not wish to see any big-shot legendaries on the field. Some Pokemon have a 600 BST, like Deoxys, who have proven to be game-breaking. Others with a 600 BST, like Victini, have proven to actually be underpowered and I would not protest to.
As well, despite my burning hatred for Speed Boost Blaziken, I would be fine with allowing him for the sake of this challenge, since he does not have ridiculous stats elsewhere.
I do not care for Smogon's other clauses, such as the Baton Pass and Sleep clauses.
ChibaMasato
Well-Known Member
In order of posts:
1. Yes. (Also, been stating the Mega needs to abide by the Single Type clause since the beginning, so I'm really not sure where people are seeing the fact that I said the opposite...)
2. Smogon has a lot of uptight rules that I disapprove of, so that won't be an issue no matter who suggests what.
3. We will see. Obvious testing is needed before a ban list is even remotely put into play. For all we know, it could potentially not make that big of a difference in the long run.
moondoggy23
Well-Known Member
I know we're months away from this really starting, but I wanted to ask some questions about being a challenger, and the way the type leaders will be set up.
-I am assuming that the top 4 type-leaders (The ones who have the best record against the other leaders) will constitute the Elite Four. Correct?
-Let's assume I start a challenge, and there are 18 leaders (for each type). I will have to battle through all of them with my party of six Pokemon without any changes. Changes made would result in having to re-start the challenge. Correct?
-Are there going to be level caps for the battles (i.e. all Pokemon will be set to lvl. 50), or will I be fighting with lvl. 60-80 Pokemon against a leader who has all lvl. 100 'mon?
-Can a leader change his/her team as often as they please?
-Are you going to be registering the Pokemon, as well as moves and stats? If so, will any moveset changes require notification, and will the challenger have to re-start their challenge?
-Are we also going to need to register our held items?
Also, I am itching to maybe start to battle here and there soon and try out some Pokemon/movesets I'm working on. If anyone else would like to battle, let me know and we can schedule a time to get online and battle.
-I am assuming that the top 4 type-leaders (The ones who have the best record against the other leaders) will constitute the Elite Four. Correct?
-Let's assume I start a challenge, and there are 18 leaders (for each type). I will have to battle through all of them with my party of six Pokemon without any changes. Changes made would result in having to re-start the challenge. Correct?
-Are there going to be level caps for the battles (i.e. all Pokemon will be set to lvl. 50), or will I be fighting with lvl. 60-80 Pokemon against a leader who has all lvl. 100 'mon?
-Can a leader change his/her team as often as they please?
-Are you going to be registering the Pokemon, as well as moves and stats? If so, will any moveset changes require notification, and will the challenger have to re-start their challenge?
-Are we also going to need to register our held items?
Also, I am itching to maybe start to battle here and there soon and try out some Pokemon/movesets I'm working on. If anyone else would like to battle, let me know and we can schedule a time to get online and battle.
ABarbeau
Member
If I may contribute:
I'd like to participate and I agree that your Mega should meet the single-type clause. If the "Normal" doesn't qualify but the Mega does, then Mega-evolve immediately.
But something lost in the debate around typing is strategy. Rarely would you use a Mega form the same way you use its "normal" form. Take Heracross for example: there are a couple of different sets to use on a Normal Heracross (wall breaker, sweeper, etc) but the Mega is probably best-used as a Sub Breaker while being outperformed in the aforementioned roles by its Normal form (due to hold items, ability, etc).
That's one example; in the case of Ampharos, its base Speed might warrant an EV investment and a Speed-neutral nature. Mega Ampharos, on the other hand, loses base Speed and qualifies for a Trick Room team, which would need no EV investment and necessitate a Speed-negative nature. This reason, I believe, renders moot the Mega-Evolve-Immediately debate: my teams are built around my Mega and the Normal form just doesn't do the same job.
Just a thought. I'd be interested in hearing about strategy related to switching types in battle.
I'd like to participate and I agree that your Mega should meet the single-type clause. If the "Normal" doesn't qualify but the Mega does, then Mega-evolve immediately.
But something lost in the debate around typing is strategy. Rarely would you use a Mega form the same way you use its "normal" form. Take Heracross for example: there are a couple of different sets to use on a Normal Heracross (wall breaker, sweeper, etc) but the Mega is probably best-used as a Sub Breaker while being outperformed in the aforementioned roles by its Normal form (due to hold items, ability, etc).
That's one example; in the case of Ampharos, its base Speed might warrant an EV investment and a Speed-neutral nature. Mega Ampharos, on the other hand, loses base Speed and qualifies for a Trick Room team, which would need no EV investment and necessitate a Speed-negative nature. This reason, I believe, renders moot the Mega-Evolve-Immediately debate: my teams are built around my Mega and the Normal form just doesn't do the same job.
Just a thought. I'd be interested in hearing about strategy related to switching types in battle.
ChibaMasato
Well-Known Member
1. Yes.
2. Yes. (More explained below.)
3. It will likely be locked to 50 to make for less ridiculous grinding, and to encourage more frequent challengers.
4. If they change pokemon, it needs to be registered with me. This is to prevent sneaking in a pokemon who doesn't abide by the regulations.
5. Moves, yes, stats, no. ANYONE can change their moveset, but I must be notified when you do. This is to prevent slipping in a hacked pokemon. Challengers are only permitted 5 total move changes. By total move changes, I mean you can edit your ENTIRE TEAM's moves 3/5 times. (Haven't decided which)
EXAMPLE:
Trainer has Gengar and Torkoal
Trainer wants to give Genger Hypnosis and Dream Eater, and give Torkoal Overheat.
Trainer registers the changes, and administrator approves.
Counts as 1 move change.
(I swear to Christ, if anyone misunderstands that, I might take up heavy drinking.)
If the trainer wants to change a pokemon's moveset, they should take care to make any other changes while they can, so they make the most of their available changes.
6. Yes.
It's primarily based on the strategy the person with the team devises. For example, should the fire trainer want a drought team, they can opt for Ninetails, Groudon, or Mega Charizard Y. This could prove useful to lead Ninetails, and use charizard without Mega Evoing. Should the sun and Ninetails be taken out, you can mega evo Charizard and suddenly, you have the sun back, thus keeping your strategy going.
On the flipside, you can make a rushdown Dragon team, leading with Mega Charizard X, pounding the hell out of your opponent's lead pokemon, essentially disrupting their strategy entirely.
No matter what type you have, you have strategy options for all potential mega-evos.
NewspaperCrane
Well-Known Member
1. Name: Crane
2. Type: Bidoof
3. Why you want to be a member: Because I seriously want to own people with my team of level 100 Bidoofs.
4. For kicks (and potential prizes in future), Design a badge/emblem. Make it no bigger than 100x100 pixels. Get creative. Name it. Be proud of it.
The Doof badge.
2. Type: Bidoof
3. Why you want to be a member: Because I seriously want to own people with my team of level 100 Bidoofs.
4. For kicks (and potential prizes in future), Design a badge/emblem. Make it no bigger than 100x100 pixels. Get creative. Name it. Be proud of it.