U.S. Congress secretly passes National Defense Authorization Act.
- Thread starter Keyblade474
- Start date
Aetherrack
Well-Known Member
? You're going to have to explain that one to me. I don't get it.
Casey
Well-Known Member
Really? Maybe you guys should read all of it. The bill does not affect U.S. Citizens FOR THE MOST PART, it is targeted at the people living here illegally or visiting. It sucks that some of our rights are "threatened" by this, but what is your suggestion for this problem? How would you fight an enemy so patient and dedicated to their cause that they would dress, work, and live like us just to gain it trust? How do you fight an enemy that had already made up its mind and its goal is simply the most deaths it can procure? How do you fight stupid americans that are clouded in ridiculous beliefs that there is no limit to what they would stop at (oklahoma city bombing anyone?)? I ask this in hope that maybe you guys have a better, more workable way. If so, write to your senator, tell them your plan. Any senator would be happy to jump on a plan that works and is favored by the public. This may not be the best way to fight these issues, and this may stem from greed or corruption, but at least these people are trying, and not sitting on their asses complaining. there will NEVER be a way to make everyone happy, and sometimes what we need isn't what we want. It sucks, but thats life. Besides, the military might be stupid, but they aren't brainless. This doesn't mean people are going to start disappearing, snatched from their homes at night. As long as these government branches are in the popular eye of the public, they are going to receive more money and more support. I dont necessarily agree with this bill, but I don't have anything better to offer, at least not right now. There is more I want to say on this but i am on my phone so it is difficult. I will end it here for now. However, as for gun control, I think guns are fine. Yeah, they kill people. Guess what, so do knives, so do fists. People have been killing each other for stupid reasons long before guns were around. It not the gun that pulls the trigger, but the person holding it. If its not with a gun, its with something else like a knife. Look at the united kingdom. look at the murder rate. If anything, guns help. Guns are a deterrent. say some robbing murderer breaks into a house. He goes to kill the inhabitants then loot the place. Say he makes it to the bedroom and some frail 80 year old is in there holding a knife. What would happen? He would probably laugh and then kill the man. Now say the man held a gun instead of a knife. Would the murdering jackass have second thoughts? Would he have control of the situation? most likely not anymore. As much as guns kill, they also give strength. They allow people unable to fend for themselves physically to fight. No matter what the tool of death, people will kill. The tool isn't what matters its the intent behind it. Sorry if there were typos in this, I'm to tired to check 
You all have valid points, and please dont think this is all I have to say on this. There is to much greed and corruption in this world for that to be what is behind this measly bill. My biggest point is that if you don't have anyway to help a situation, done sit around and complain about it. Enjoy life and fight to do what you can where you can. Just make sure you "do"
If you ever catch me on mumble, I'd be glad to DEBATE, like human beings, more in depth about this or any issue brewing in your minds
You all have valid points, and please dont think this is all I have to say on this. There is to much greed and corruption in this world for that to be what is behind this measly bill. My biggest point is that if you don't have anyway to help a situation, done sit around and complain about it. Enjoy life and fight to do what you can where you can. Just make sure you "do"
If you ever catch me on mumble, I'd be glad to DEBATE, like human beings, more in depth about this or any issue brewing in your minds
Joshuame13
Active Member
Well said.
Aetherrack
Well-Known Member
You make a lot of good points, mate. I have to argue a couple though.Really? Maybe you guys should read all of it. The bill does not affect U.S. Citizens FOR THE MOST PART, it is targeted at the people living here illegally or visiting. It sucks that some of our rights are "threatened" by this, but what is your suggestion for this problem? How would you fight an enemy so patient and dedicated to their cause that they would dress, work, and live like us just to gain it trust? How do you fight an enemy that had already made up its mind and its goal is simply the most deaths it can procure? How do you fight stupid americans that are clouded in ridiculous beliefs that there is no limit to what they would stop at (oklahoma city bombing anyone?)? I ask this in hope that maybe you guys have a better, more workable way. If so, write to your senator, tell them your plan. Any senator would be happy to jump on a plan that works and is favored by the public. This may not be the best way to fight these issues, and this may stem from greed or corruption, but at least these people are trying, and not sitting on their asses complaining. there will NEVER be a way to make everyone happy, and sometimes what we need isn't what we want. It sucks, but thats life. Besides, the military might be stupid, but they aren't brainless. This didn't mean people are going to start displaying, snatched from their homes at night. As long as these government branches are in the popular eye of the public, they are going to receive more money and more support. I dont necessarily agree with this bill, but I don't have anything better to offer, at least not right now. There is more I want to say on this but i am on my phone so it is difficult. I will end it here for now. However, as for fun control, I think guns are fine. Yeah, they kill people. Guess what, so do knives, so do fists. People have been killing each other for stupid reasons long before guns were around. It not the gun that pulls the trigger, but the person holding it. If its not with a gun, its with something else like a knife. Look at the united kingdom. look at the murder rate. If anything, guns help. Guns are a deterrent. say some robbing murderer breaks into a house. He goes to kill the inhabitants them loot the place. Say he makes it to the bedroom and some frail 80 year old is in there holding a knife. What would happen? He would probably laugh and then kill the man. Now say the man held a gun instead of a knife. Would the murdering jackass gave second thoughts? Would he have control of the situation? most likely not anymore. As much as guns kill, they also give strength. They allow people unable to fend for themselves physically to fight. No matter what the tool of death, people will kill. The tool isn't what matters its the intent behind it. Sorry if there were typos in this, I'm to tired to check
Your all have valid points, and please dont think this is all I have to say on this. There is to much greed and corruption in this world for that to be what behind this measly bill. My biggest point is that if you don't have anyway to help a situation, done sit around and complain about it. Enjoy life and fight to do what you can where you can. Just make sure you "do"
If you every catch me on mumble, if me glad to DEBATE, like human beings, more in depth about this or any issue brewing in your minds
1. The government has already shown it can and will abuse power if the citizens let it have the power to begin with.
2. You can say "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," but the truth is, guns make it much easier to kill many more people.
One thing I cannot EVER argue with is making sure that you let your representatives know that YOU, the citizen, the electorate, the one who put them in power; are holding them accountable for what they do or do not do. Write them, keep in contact. Watch their arguments in the House/Senate and make sure you comment on it every so often (ie, "I disagreed with some of the points you made," or "You really struck a chord with me on these things," or even "Why didn't you speak up when the discussion came around to [insert issue here]?").
Personally, I keep a close working relationship with every representative that affects my life. I reside in Edmonton, Alberta; and I write letters to our mayor and the district representative. I work in Ft.McMurray, and while I do not have an actual say in the goings-on of that municipality, I do keep up with the local feelings and let the mayor know my thoughts as well. Our provincial government sits in Edmonton, and I also write my premier and the other members of that level. And lastly, though they go mostly ignored, I watch recaps of our House of Commons and Senate meetings, and always e-mail the Prime Minister about them; and of course my Member of Parliament as well.
You can never go wrong when you tell the people who represent you exactly how you wish to be represented.
GreenEarth
Well-Known Member
If there is abuse of power it will probably be brought up in court, or someones foot will be inside someones ass, I'll make sure to volunteer my foot. The problems is there is too much money flying around Washington DC, and too many groups not elected by the people are applying influence and pressure with the use of money. Elected officials are met with something called a conflict of interest. Where money meets political duty. They cannot exist together, and so far money is winning. Campaign contributions need to be drastically cut, lobbyists need to shut the fuck up, and think tanks need to kiss my ass. And can we please stop electing former employees of large companies, they tend to remain loyal to their companies if you know what I'm saying, cough Clarence Thomas cough Monsanto. (I know Judges are appointed by the President).
As for guns. Bad people will always find a way to get guns. Changing gun laws now will be drastic, and a lot of people would be upset. Most people are responsible gun owner who are just protecting their families and themselves.
And now for some comedic perspectives on guns.
From the documentary "Bowling for Columbine"
From Eddie Izzard's standup "Dressed to Kill"
Standup by Chris Rock, the name of which I don't know
As for guns. Bad people will always find a way to get guns. Changing gun laws now will be drastic, and a lot of people would be upset. Most people are responsible gun owner who are just protecting their families and themselves.
And now for some comedic perspectives on guns.
From the documentary "Bowling for Columbine"
From Eddie Izzard's standup "Dressed to Kill"
Standup by Chris Rock, the name of which I don't know
oozinator
Well-Known Member
Really? Maybe you guys should read all of it. The bill does not affect U.S. Citizens FOR THE MOST PART, it is targeted at the people living here illegally or visiting. It sucks that some of our rights are "threatened" by this, but what is your suggestion for this problem? How would you fight an enemy so patient and dedicated to their cause that they would dress, work, and live like us just to gain it trust? How do you fight an enemy that had already made up its mind and its goal is simply the most deaths it can procure? How do you fight stupid americans that are clouded in ridiculous beliefs that there is no limit to what they would stop at (oklahoma city bombing anyone?)? I ask this in hope that maybe you guys have a better, more workable way. If so, write to your senator, tell them your plan. Any senator would be happy to jump on a plan that works and is favored by the public. This may not be the best way to fight these issues, and this may stem from greed or corruption, but at least these people are trying, and not sitting on their asses complaining. there will NEVER be a way to make everyone happy, and sometimes what we need isn't what we want. It sucks, but thats life. Besides, the military might be stupid, but they aren't brainless. This doesn't mean people are going to start disappearing, snatched from their homes at night. As long as these government branches are in the popular eye of the public, they are going to receive more money and more support. I dont necessarily agree with this bill, but I don't have anything better to offer, at least not right now. There is more I want to say on this but i am on my phone so it is difficult. I will end it here for now. However, as for gun control, I think guns are fine. Yeah, they kill people. Guess what, so do knives, so do fists. People have been killing each other for stupid reasons long before guns were around. It not the gun that pulls the trigger, but the person holding it. If its not with a gun, its with something else like a knife. Look at the united kingdom. look at the murder rate. If anything, guns help. Guns are a deterrent. say some robbing murderer breaks into a house. He goes to kill the inhabitants then loot the place. Say he makes it to the bedroom and some frail 80 year old is in there holding a knife. What would happen? He would probably laugh and then kill the man. Now say the man held a gun instead of a knife. Would the murdering jackass have second thoughts? Would he have control of the situation? most likely not anymore. As much as guns kill, they also give strength. They allow people unable to fend for themselves physically to fight. No matter what the tool of death, people will kill. The tool isn't what matters its the intent behind it. Sorry if there were typos in this, I'm to tired to check
You all have valid points, and please dont think this is all I have to say on this. There is to much greed and corruption in this world for that to be what is behind this measly bill. My biggest point is that if you don't have anyway to help a situation, done sit around and complain about it. Enjoy life and fight to do what you can where you can. Just make sure you "do"
If you ever catch me on mumble, I'd be glad to DEBATE, like human beings, more in depth about this or any issue brewing in your minds
For those of you curious, here's the full text of the
Subtitle D—Detainee Matters
SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
(b) COVERED PERSONS.—A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
(c) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.—The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111–84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person’s country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.
(d) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(e) AUTHORITIES.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
(f) REQUIREMENT FOR BRIEFINGS OF CONGRESS.— The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be ‘‘covered persons’’ for purposes of subsection (b)(2).
SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
(b) COVERED PERSONS.—A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
(c) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.—The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111–84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person’s country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.
(d) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(e) AUTHORITIES.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
(f) REQUIREMENT FOR BRIEFINGS OF CONGRESS.— The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be ‘‘covered persons’’ for purposes of subsection (b)(2).
Part (e) of the bill says that laws governing the arrests of U.S. citizens, lawful resident aliens, and other persons for NON-TERRORISM-RELATED offenses will not be affected. So all those "OCCUPY X" Protestors are probably safe from indefinite detention.
Part (b)(2) is what's causing all the concern because "associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States" and "belligerent act" is up for interpretation, and I believe (b) does include U.S. citizens as currently worded. Part (f) says that Congress will be briefed on individuals detained under part (b)(2).
Part (c)(1) says that terror suspects can be held until the "cessation of hostilities" which is problematic, since the "war on terror" may not have a definite end. Thus terror suspects, who may or may not have U.S. citizenship, can be detained indefinitely on a technicality.
CONCLUSION: A U.S. citizen arrested in the United States can be held indefinitely without trial, BUT he has to be like part of an armed, militant anti-American group who has targeted American or allied institutions. Most activists will not fall in this category but some inevitably will.
Which of these is terrorist?
A naive college student who joins up with a radical environmentalist group, who is involved in the planning and materials acquisition for the sabotage of a coal-fired power plant that results in the plant going offline for 14 hours.
A naive college student who joins up with a radical environmentalist group, who is involved in the planning and materials acquisition for the sabotage of a nuclear power plant that inadvertently leads to a partial core meltdown and thus endangers several nearby communities.
A naive college student who joins up with a radical environmentalist group, who is involved in the planning and materials acquisition for the sabotage of a coal-fired power plant that results in the plant going offline for 14 hours.
A naive college student who joins up with a radical environmentalist group, who is involved in the planning and materials acquisition for the sabotage of a nuclear power plant that inadvertently leads to a partial core meltdown and thus endangers several nearby communities.
Stratadon
Well-Known Member
Online news sources have made a fool of everyone who believes all the
that you are claiming this bill does.
It is the business of news organizations to blow anything and everything out of proportion and to make things seem way worse than they really are.
This act does not end life as we know it, nor does it compromise the rights of any US citizens. Sure, parts of the bill may be poorly worded, but I highly doubt that the entire government is about to default on its most fundamental principals and start detaining anyone they feel is a nuisance.
This has the potential to be a massively useful tool for the government in the fight against terrorism. This will dramatically reduce the cost of punishing terrorists. They no longer need to be sent through court, which is a huge waste of time and money, and can instead just be locked up and forgotten about.
Everyone needs to calm down about this act and actually take the time to read it if you are so scared and up-in-arms about it. Oozinator made it very easy to do that in his post, so you can all thank him.
Moral of the story, don't believe half the
StTheo
Well-Known Member
TLDR. Time for ponies.Really? Maybe you guys should read all of it. The bill does not affect U.S. Citizens FOR THE MOST PART, it is targeted at the people living here illegally or visiting. It sucks that some of our rights are "threatened" by this, but what is your suggestion for this problem? How would you fight an enemy so patient and dedicated to their cause that they would dress, work, and live like us just to gain it trust? How do you fight an enemy that had already made up its mind and its goal is simply the most deaths it can procure? How do you fight stupid americans that are clouded in ridiculous beliefs that there is no limit to what they would stop at (oklahoma city bombing anyone?)? I ask this in hope that maybe you guys have a better, more workable way. If so, write to your senator, tell them your plan. Any senator would be happy to jump on a plan that works and is favored by the public. This may not be the best way to fight these issues, and this may stem from greed or corruption, but at least these people are trying, and not sitting on their asses complaining. there will NEVER be a way to make everyone happy, and sometimes what we need isn't what we want. It sucks, but thats life. Besides, the military might be stupid, but they aren't brainless. This doesn't mean people are going to start disappearing, snatched from their homes at night. As long as these government branches are in the popular eye of the public, they are going to receive more money and more support. I dont necessarily agree with this bill, but I don't have anything better to offer, at least not right now. There is more I want to say on this but i am on my phone so it is difficult. I will end it here for now. However, as for gun control, I think guns are fine. Yeah, they kill people. Guess what, so do knives, so do fists. People have been killing each other for stupid reasons long before guns were around. It not the gun that pulls the trigger, but the person holding it. If its not with a gun, its with something else like a knife. Look at the united kingdom. look at the murder rate. If anything, guns help. Guns are a deterrent. say some robbing murderer breaks into a house. He goes to kill the inhabitants then loot the place. Say he makes it to the bedroom and some frail 80 year old is in there holding a knife. What would happen? He would probably laugh and then kill the man. Now say the man held a gun instead of a knife. Would the murdering jackass have second thoughts? Would he have control of the situation? most likely not anymore. As much as guns kill, they also give strength. They allow people unable to fend for themselves physically to fight. No matter what the tool of death, people will kill. The tool isn't what matters its the intent behind it. Sorry if there were typos in this, I'm to tired to check
You all have valid points, and please dont think this is all I have to say on this. There is to much greed and corruption in this world for that to be what is behind this measly bill. My biggest point is that if you don't have anyway to help a situation, done sit around and complain about it. Enjoy life and fight to do what you can where you can. Just make sure you "do"
If you ever catch me on mumble, I'd be glad to DEBATE, like human beings, more in depth about this or any issue brewing in your minds
katphish
Well-Known Member
go here: https://www.team9000.net/threads/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic.10674/page-174 just to keep ourselves out of everyone else's way alright
oozinator
Well-Known Member
Agree with Stratadon on this one. News, whether from left-learning or right-leaning sources, thrives off sensationalism. It's quite unfortunate that fact-checking takes so much time. (Took me an hour to find the sources and figure out the context of the Act)
There is a grey area to this law (see the example I posted before Strata's post), and it seems that Part (f) of the Section was written in to address that.
But yeah, steer clear of people who want to damage life and property, and you'll be fine.
Clayto1332
Well-Known Member
I haven't read this whole thread so my apologies if this was already addressed but...
IT WASN'T SECRETLY PASSED! IT WAS AIRED LIVE ON CSPAN!!!
Also here in the united states, a bill has to pass through the house of representatives before it is forwarded along to the president to be signed. As much attention as there is on this bill, it probably won't happen.
I think this is a good example of the direction the government is trying to go and should be a sort of bad omen for everyone. We owe China 700 billion dollars that we have yet to pay back. What do you guys think the collateral is on that? My 3 year old daughter is walking around talking in chinese because China somehow has some propaganda show on NickJr (a very popular baby/toddler tv channel for those who don't know) for starters.
Here is what bugs me. All of the people in this occupy movement that sit on their asses and "protest" like it is going to do the world any good. Why don't they get off their asses and do something? Every single official in the Senate and Congress are elected by the people... Register to vote, become active in your communities, go to city council meetings... It is typical American behavior to bitch and moan expecting someone to hand everything to you. I don't know about you guys but if I was unemployed, in debt, about to lose my house etc I would be working 2 shit jobs and doing everything I can to stay afloat. Not living in a tent in front of city hall.
/vent
IT WASN'T SECRETLY PASSED! IT WAS AIRED LIVE ON CSPAN!!!
Also here in the united states, a bill has to pass through the house of representatives before it is forwarded along to the president to be signed. As much attention as there is on this bill, it probably won't happen.
I think this is a good example of the direction the government is trying to go and should be a sort of bad omen for everyone. We owe China 700 billion dollars that we have yet to pay back. What do you guys think the collateral is on that? My 3 year old daughter is walking around talking in chinese because China somehow has some propaganda show on NickJr (a very popular baby/toddler tv channel for those who don't know) for starters.
Here is what bugs me. All of the people in this occupy movement that sit on their asses and "protest" like it is going to do the world any good. Why don't they get off their asses and do something? Every single official in the Senate and Congress are elected by the people... Register to vote, become active in your communities, go to city council meetings... It is typical American behavior to bitch and moan expecting someone to hand everything to you. I don't know about you guys but if I was unemployed, in debt, about to lose my house etc I would be working 2 shit jobs and doing everything I can to stay afloat. Not living in a tent in front of city hall.
/vent
Aetherrack
Well-Known Member
Happy to know I'm not the only one who thinks that Occupy is going about this the wrong way.
If you are still worried come to Australia
Video game censorship? No.
GreenEarth
Well-Known Member
If you are still worried come to Australia
If anyone is confused what Sonic was talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games
I hadn't heard of this, so funny. Mass effect banned for lesbian scene. China butt-mad over Tibet.
oh lawds so funny.
Cacher
Well-Known Member
Audi
Well-Known Member
AUSTRALIA, BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD
^^^If you are still worried come to Australia
Audi
Well-Known Member
Peh.
Seriously, video game censorship?
I can still play L4D2, and I was lookin' at a copy of Leisure Suit Larry the other day at EB Games.
It's really quite vague. Not to mention, you have a large amount of people here working very hard to stop this sorta thing.
3vans
Well-Known Member
It's only when things like these happen that you think: 1984
What is happening to this planet. They slowly remove our rights so we don;t notice until we have none.